Gratitude from a different perspective, a conversation with Candyce Nelson

Speaker 1: In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about the importance of gratitude and meditation. Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life. I'm Dr Kenny Embry. Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. Have you ever meditated? I mean really meditated. Have you ever meditated? I mean really meditated, not talking about burning incense or crossing your legs, but I do mean clearing your head and focusing. And if you said yes, then tell me why you're lying and then tell me what do you have to lose ? For this episode, I intentionally chose to speak with Candice Nelson. She's someone who is new at my university, where she's working in a division that helps us faculty members integrate technology and best teaching practices in the classroom. To be frank, this was both an opportunity to get to know a colleague, but also to understand a different religion. Candice is Buddhist. Understand a different religion . Candice is Buddhist. No, I'm not converting to Buddhism, but because Buddhism is renowned for its meditation practices. I think this is something I can learn from and I'm grateful to have the opportunity to do just that. Candice and I explore the heart of gratitude and in that conversation we talk about meditation and perspective. You'll hear us discuss the power of presence, the art of acceptance and how both of our respective faiths use gratitude as a tool for personal growth. Listen closely as we unpack how gratitude can reshape your view of life's challenges, enrich your relationships and lead to profound moments of peace. What do you have to lose? Well, maybe there's something we can gain. So let's start here. What is gratitude? Speaker 2: It's being aware of the beautiful and positive things that you have in your life, understanding how powerful those things are, being of the present moment, gratitude is like the full experience of the present to me. I try to spend at least some time every day just appreciating , wherever I'm at, the fact that I woke up, the fact that I'm breathing, you know. Speaker 1: Yeah, I do know. Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just like I'm sitting in traffic. But you know what? I have a car. I'm pretty grateful for that. Speaker 1: You're not wrong. We get so upset about things that number one are outside of our control. Wrong, we get so upset about things that number one are outside of our control. But number two there's a lot that we have to be thankful for to even have those problems. This morning I got out of a bed that most people do not sleep in. I live in a country that is not at war. I got to eat some really okay food, but I got to eat food period. So I mean, these are all things that we can be grateful for, and it's easy for us to get entitled. It's easy for us to feel like no, no, no, no, no, my life is bad. My life just is not working because there are parts of it that you'd like to be different. Speaker 2: There's always a point like it's okay to feel it's not the way that you want it right now. I understand that feeling, but to be grateful for what you have in the moment is really something that can cultivate a lot of energy. If you're thinking about it and drive you to reach some goals that you may want To appreciate. What you have will make you happy. It's like the basis for being happy to me. Speaker 1: How important is happiness? Is happiness a big deal? Speaker 2: I mean it's important , but it's not everything, because there's other feelings besides that Happiness there's, you know, just being content. I find that a very pleasant feeling. I don't have to have a sense of joy. Sometimes we conflate happiness and well-being. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: But gratitude leads to that sense of well-being because you do appreciate all of those little things that happen in your life. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: And honestly being grateful even for the things that maybe we didn't want to go through or didn't want to experience or didn't want, so those led to where you are. I remember getting in a car accident. I got rear-ended and I felt terrible. Woe is me for a second. And then I realized well, this is just another opportunity, I'll get it fixed, it'll be fine , and here I am, I've got a better car. You know, this is just another opportunity. I'll get it fixed, it'll be fine. And here I am. I've got a better car. You know a little bit later. You know it leads to something else, but I wouldn't have gotten here if that didn't happen. So it's taught me just to be grateful for everything. Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that we talked about this a little bit yesterday is that you are a Buddhist. Yes, let me ask you this what is the role of gratitude in Buddhism? Speaker 2: It's pretty much the foundation. Speaker 1: Really. Speaker 2: Yeah, that and understanding and compassion for all people. But gratitude, just being in the present moment is a very big part of my practice. So living and appreciating breathing, so meditation is a big thing. So if I'm meditating, it might be breathing in and breathing out and appreciating what is happening in my body. That's helping me live. I think about that sense of interconnectedness with every living thing. You become grateful for that and it changes your perspective on how you view people and things. It's hard to explain and it stems from that gratitude of being present and that's the foundation for my Buddhism. I will not say that I am an expert, but I can definitely speak from my personal practice and my personal experiences. Speaker 1: Well, I've been a Christian for 55 years and I would not call myself an expert either. There is so much that I don't have a clue about that idea of meditation. One of the things about Christianity is we are told to meditate, but I don't know that we know how to do that very well . How do you meditate? How do you center yourself? What are some of the practices that you go through that help you with this? Speaker 2: It was a tough journey. I will say that because—. Speaker 1: Oh, you're done. You're done on that journey. No, no, I'm not even nearly done. Speaker 2: When I do meditate, I just sit wherever I am and I just focus on my breathing. I'll just focus on myself, kind of breathing in and breathing out. Speaker 1: So it helps kind of calm the rush of thoughts and then, oh, candice, that's way too simple. Speaker 2: That's way too simple . That's it. That's all you got to do, Like that's the secret sauce. You just sit down and breathe. It sounds simple and then you do it. Speaker 1: What's the challenge of it? Speaker 2: Shutting off your brain, especially in our culture . It's a very project-driven, very attainment-driven, got to keep doing, got to keep accomplishing sort of culture. Speaker 1: Right, and what's wrong with that, Candice? Speaker 2: Not a thing. But I think it's harder when you're trying to calm your thoughts and especially when you have to sit down and do nothing . Speaker 1: Well, yeah. Speaker 2: It essentially is what we perceive as doing nothing. Sometimes, when you say, well, I'm doing nothing, that's like a negative. You're not being productive how dare you? But you are. You're learning to calm, yourself, to calm your thoughts and it brings a real sense of clarity and perspective. Now, not all meditation is just clear your mind, some of it. There's one that's specifically for gratitude. Speaker 1: And how does that go? Speaker 2: You imagine yourself, so it's like kind of an imagination thing. So you sit and you imagine yourself in a garden of your choosing on a bench, and there's a fence and you imagine people walking by that fence. You start out with somebody easy, somebody where it's easy to be grateful for them, and you invite them to sit with you and you tell them, you give them a flower and you explain why you're grateful for them and you wish them their best and they move on and slowly, throughout this practice, you deal with more difficult people in your life, the people that maybe it's harder to say that you're grateful for or that you really struggle. But through that, through thinking of that person or those people that I have the most complicated life with or conversations with, I really do develop a deep appreciation for them because they give my life perspective and I do wish them well and it gives you that space inside of you to be compassionate and understanding toward them and I really like that meditation in particular. Speaker 1: Is it mostly just a visualization exercise? Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very visual, at least for me. Speaker 1: I see, see it you're not watching a movie. This is, this is a vision in your mind. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's just like a vision in your mind and you're, you know, you're kind of hearing it in your head, but there's also that piece of you that's kind of even in the background, noticing what's happening and those interactions . So it's like you know D&D but for meditating. Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever referenced Dungeons Dragons on this. This might be a first, but go ahead. Speaker 2: Yes, but you're kind of role-playing it out. You are facing people and things that are easy and some that are hard, and looking at it directly in a very comfortable way. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: That you are inviting them into the space and you are finding those things, that you can be appreciative about them and, I think, really building that sense of compassion and understanding. It is critical to my outlook on life and to developing a sense of well-being and understanding. Speaker 1: Right. I think one of the things that all of us struggle with is not getting what we want when we want it. You're probably familiar with the character of Job in the Old Testament. Job is a character in the Old Testament who you're given a backstage conversation with God and the devil, and the devil makes this argument. You know, the only reason that Job is following you is because you keep on giving him all this great stuff. And God said take it all away. See what happens. And the problem is Job, who has been righteous that's what you're told at the very beginning of the story. He didn't do anything to deserve what he got. But he has 10 children and the devil takes all 10 of them, kills them, he takes his health, he takes all of his possessions and there comes a point at which all the things that he had worked for that were frankly given to him by the Lord and he gets to the point where there's not anything he can do anymore. And it's that, I think, what you're describing that sense of surrender, that there's not anything I can do. And the test for Job was are you going to denounce God or are you going to take God on his terms? And it sounds like that's a lot of what you're talking about there as well. Is that right? Speaker 2: That's definitely part of it. It's kind of just understanding what's in your control and what's not. This is a Stoic philosophy too, which is kind of what led me into Buddhism later, which is kind of what led me into Buddhism later. There's things that you have control over and things you do not. And you have to be okay and accept, like you have to accept that that's what's happening and you can't let it destroy you, or else what are you going to do ? Speaker 1: Well, I can think of some things that you might do. I mean, I understand what you're saying, because you and I could both name some people who got really bitter. And you can also, you and I could both name some people that decide to embrace victimhood and just decide that victimhood is going to be. That's just going to be my tag right now, that I'm just going to. You guys aren't considering that I'm really going, that I'm and this is something that happens with my wife and I that I didn't get a good night's sleep, and so then it becomes a one-upmanship game of well, I didn't get enough sleep last night, you got, and I get it. Enough sleep last night, you got and I get it. And it's kind of a petty argument, because now we're trying to argue who has the least amount of sleep, which is not a game that I want to play, nor do I want to win. Speaker 2: No, I'd imagine. Not. Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that you're kind of talking about again, it's that idea of centering yourself and focusing on something that really makes you better is is that right? Is that accurate? Speaker 2: and and honestly, just accepting things as they are like even, even if it's not better at the moment um, you can't change it, but you can accept it, and then that's a platform that you can use to get better, like you can use that to. If I just accept whatever's happening to me. You know, for example, I have migraines all the time. Speaker 1: Well, my wife does too. My wife does too. Yeah. Speaker 2: I can't do anything about that. They exist, right, I can drink some water, take my time and then just keep going on and moving. Or my other choice is to sit there and wallow and get all upset that I have a headache and make it worse. Speaker 1: And you've never done that. You've never gotten upset about this stuff. No, that's how I learned, is I got upset? Make it worse. And you've never done that. You've never gotten upset about this stuff. Speaker 2: No, that's how I learned is I got upset about it. First Because I started getting them when I was very young, so I didn't understand, you know, and of course I got, you know, mad. I can't see, I can't hear, like hear properly. I can't even talk properly. When I have them properly, I can't even talk properly when I have them. Speaker 1: It's very frustrating . Speaker 2: So I there was that tendency to want to wallow and or be like woe is me, but you learn well, I could do that and just not be happy or realize it's gonna go go away. Everything is temporary. That's. Another thing that drew me to Buddhism is the idea of the temporary nature of things. Speaker 1: All things are temporary, including the migraines. Yeah, that's true. Again, I think about things in my Christian tradition where there's a time for everything to happen and there's a time again it's that old bird song to everything there's a season, a time for war, a time for peace and all of those things. And I guess one of the things that I would say is and I think you would probably agree with this there's a time to be depressed and just wallow in depression. But that time, in my opinion and I don't know if you would agree with this is that that time probably needs to be as short as you can make it, because it's not a productive time, but it might be something. I mean, I'm thinking about a family member that I know that is going to die. It's just, we know they're going to die and we know it's going to be soon, and we know we're going to be sad, but we also know at some point we're going to have to pick ourselves up and move on. And it's not because we didn't love them. We will give them the time that we need, but we need to move on . Is this something you agree with? Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I'm thinking it made me think about my great-grandmother. For the longest time she had Alzheimer's. She had breast cancer. Speaker 1: Oh bless her. Speaker 2: We knew it was coming , but she lived till she was 99 years old. Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Speaker 2: And her funeral was a—we threw her the biggest party , you know because that's what she would have wanted. Were we sad? Absolutely. We were all there the day that she died. We were all there with her? did we cry? Absolutely? Yeah, um, we took time to really feel it, to deeply feel it. Um, but part of like the buddhist tradition for me has been like you look at that, that suffering, that pain, and you take care of it. You really look at the source of that and the source of that pain came from how much I loved her and how much I would miss her talking to me and her teaching. And I realized that that doesn't go away. Her teachings stay through the memories that I have of her and she continues on in so many other people in so many other ways. She was a teacher for years, like her whole career. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And I think about her . Students showed up to her funeral. Oh isn't that wonderful. Yeah, I mean, she was 99 years old and they show, you know, to have that kind of an impact. People leave, but they don't really leave. Pieces of them are here, they continue on and that, to me, is very helpful. But I think kind of, I'm kind of getting a little off track but, but it's okay to deeply feel something to really look at it. But if you live there, it's a pretty dark place to be it can be. Speaker 1: I think again going back to the topic that we're talking about, gratitude is not always a happy feeling. Gratitude is not always something that makes us feel great. Do you agree with that? Speaker 2: In a way. I think there's been some experiences I've had that I'm grateful for that. I would have rather not have gone through, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they make you the person you are. They really do. Speaker 1: I got to kick my daughter out of the house Exciting times because she got married. Speaker 2: Oh. Speaker 1: And I'm sad on one hand, but I'm really happy for it and, frankly, I'm just grateful that I got to be there for a while. Look, I think I'm glad not to be paying for it anymore. I'm very grateful for that. But that said, I think one of the things and you've got one, I've got four the parent's journey is different than I thought it would be, and I guess the biggest blessing for me would be to recognize I'm not all that important and that I'm kind of insignificant in the grand scheme of things is a very good thing. Oh yeah, I'm replaceable. That's probably good that I'm only going to be in these kids' lives, my students' lives. I'm important to them for maybe four years and that's it. But it's one of the things that I talk to my students about. They won't remember what we talk about in the classroom, they just won't. But they'll remember how they felt, they'll remember things that they probably won't think they'll remember Again. They'll cram for the final, they'll cram for the midterm and they won't remember any of it. I think that when it comes to again and it's the beauty of being a teacher, the beauty of being an educator, the beauty of being somebody who can help other people. I guess that's one of the things that I really appreciate, that there is gratitude in playing a small role. Again, it's that idea that you aren't all that important. Is this something that you recognize? Speaker 2: Absolutely. Speaker 1: How so. Speaker 2: So when I think about it, I like to play a little mind game sometimes. Oh, you do I like to imagine my size compared to the rest of the universe, my problems compared to all of that, you know. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And I realized it doesn't really matter that much. You know, in the grand scheme of things I am so small and that sounds depressing, but when you really think about it it's not. It's very freeing to realize that you, while these things feel so heavy, it's not as heavy as it looks, it's a little bit of an illusion. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: It's just the moment, it's a perception. Speaker 1: And that's where we were going. That's what we were talking about when we were talking about meditation. That, really, when it comes to meditation, I think it is just again. I think it's just putting you in your place, it's recognizing yeah, this is my problem's not that big a deal. Speaker 2: It really does do that for you and you know it's funny when we were talking about things that you know. Maybe being grateful can really be a hard experience sometimes. Yeah. Being grateful can really be a hard experience sometimes. Yeah, so my daughter, I had her right in the middle of the pandemic. Speaker 1: Oh, bless your heart. Speaker 2: And at first I was really upset about that. Baby showers canceled, nobody to be there with us in her first moments, nobody to visit, and when you look at it that way it's like, oh how terrible. But really what I got was time with just her. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And I would not change that ever because I got time to just be with her without distraction. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: To really bond, and that was something I probably would have never realized, that I missed out on. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Had you know, it been a normal year yeah. Where everybody's around all the time, and I am deeply grateful for that time. Yeah, but, in the moment it was kind of a painful gratitude. I was grateful for the time but I did miss my family and I did really want that village to help . You know it takes a village to raise a child but I honestly, looking back, I would never change that. Speaker 1: It takes a checking account to raise a child. No, I understand what you're saying, but again, going back to our idea, you have to choose that perspective because you can absolutely. This was a terrible time to have a child. And look at all the things that I lost and look at all the things that did not work out my way and I didn't get what I wanted when I wanted it. And again, does that mean you're happy that your family was not able to be a part of your daughter's life? Speaker 2: Oh no, they were able to. It just was later and in a different way, and I view it that way. It just it wasn't the same as it always had been in years past , when people had children. It was just different, and that's okay. Speaker 1: Well, and I think what you're telling me is, it's not only okay, it depends on how you decide to look at what that was. You chose to look at this as my word is a blessing, and you chose not to look at that as a curse, Because if you wanted to make that a curse, you could just as easily call it a curse If you wanted to make that a curse. Speaker 2: You could just as easily call it a curse. Oh, absolutely, and it is a choice, and every day we have to make that choice to look at it a little more positively and I think I really like that idea of choosing, gratitude of the choice of you know, it is my choice to feel this way. It is empowering to think that you have really is a superpower. You can look at anything, any event, and just be like. You know, I'm going to choose to look at this a little different and if you look at it from that perspective, you've got all the power in the world to just be well. Speaker 1: What kind of Pollyanna are you? Why aren't you? I mean, don't you recognize all the power in the world to just be well? What kind of Pollyanna are you? Why aren't you? I mean, don't you recognize all the problems, Don't you? Speaker 2: recognize all the things that you really are missing out on. Oh, I do, but I can't change that. Like this is, I can understand and I can sympathize and I can deeply feel and have compassion for these things. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: But in the end, if I don't choose to do something or to look at this positively or find a solution, what am I really doing? I'm just sitting there and looking at it and saying that's a problem and that's it. And that's not helpful. Speaker 1: Well, but you recognize it. I mean, I'm sure your family was not excited that they weren't able to see your baby. No, got it. I appreciate that. I'm glad that that's the way they feel and that's really the way you want them to feel, because if they felt differently , that would probably mean that the relationship was not what you wanted it to be. But by the same token and this is something that I'm guessing you've heard before when you start arguing for your shortcomings, when you start arguing for your weaknesses, when you start arguing for the things that are not going your way, you get to keep them. When you start arguing for the things that are not going your way, you get to keep them. You get to be as miserable as you want to make yourself. And I think one of the things that I appreciate what you're talking about again, and it's kind of going back to that simple idea of meditation, centering yourself and choosing what you're going to focus on. Because if you want to focus on all the crud that's going on around you, you can, or you can, focus on the things and look at it in a way that makes you not only better but grateful. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you agree with this? Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with it when you do find the time. I absolutely agree with it when you do find the time to meditate and it's anywhere, like sitting in this chair or whatever you can. Just it's not something that you have to get a special cushion for or be in a dark room . Speaker 1: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Speaker 2: I saw the commercial. No, you can, it's anywhere. And for however –you don't have to meditate for hours, you know , just breathing in and breathing out and understanding that you're present, and that is a beautiful thing. Speaker 1: That sounds too simple. Speaker 2: It's that simple. I think that you know there was something that I read. It was talking about when meditation was first coming over into the western world and that that was the first reaction. Like it was almost too simple because we expect a process or what, or like one of the questions was well, what do you? What do you do? Like like it's an action, like you have to do a thing, and that that's where the hardest thing is. It's because it's literally you do nothing, and sometimes it is you think about nothing and you just sit. And that's really nice too, because you can just no, it's not. Oh, I love it. Like there's a you know you got a lot going on and you find, like you know, a minute to just sit. It really can give you a reset. It's gratifying just to be like , yes, I have a moment to just let it go for a minute and then I jump right back in and I'm 10 times more productive. Speaker 1: Listen to you Now. You took it right back to productivity. Speaker 2: I know, listen, I'm not perfect, I know. Speaker 1: Well, no, I understand that, and I think what you haven't argued for and I think you don't need to it's that idea of balance. It's that idea. Again, what I would say is you need to choose your values, or your values will be chosen for you, or your values will be chosen for you. And the thing I don't think most people do is in Christianity. One of the things is we have an endless supply of guilt for not reading enough of the Bible, and the idea is that, however much Bible you've consumed, it's not enough. And there's an endless supply of okay, you need to do this more, you need to understand this better. And you're not good enough. By the way, which is true, none of us are, and that's kind of the entire idea that we are not good enough, that we did need a Savior, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, and I don't disagree with that, and I don't disagree with that. But I think one of the things, that, on the opposite side of this, that if you would center yourself on the things that actually make a difference, that are important, and focus on the things that you can honestly start thinking on and again, this is in Philippians thinking on good things, thinking on productive things, thinking on things that make you better. You probably will get better. If you just talk about, if you just focus on the things that are not important to you but important to somebody else, you will live somebody else's values . You will live somebody else's life, and I don't think that's very helpful, and I think one of the things that you're talking about really, with that, I don't know. Let me just ask this question, because it needs to become a question at some point. Candice, you basically said focus on your breath, but I don't think that's all you do, is it? You invite somebody to sit on a bench with you and you invite your friends and then eventually start inviting your enemies. How else can we meditate? What can we do to make ourselves better? Speaker 2: Well, there's all sorts of different meditations out there, and these are just ones that I've done or experienced. There's even some called the body scan, where you just lay down in a comfortable position and you just focus on one muscle group at a time, or one part at a time and relax. Speaker 1: That sounds so woo-woo. Come on, it does, it does, come on. Speaker 2: It does. But you don't realize how much tension you carry in your forehead until somebody tells you to relax it. And then it's like holy cow, or like I was doing a guided meditation and they said or like I was doing a guided meditation and they said relax your jaw. And I'm like it is relaxed. I'm thinking to myself and I say it in that tone in my head, which is not very zen of me, and I finally, you know, I just let it go and I realized, wow, that was a lot of tension. I'm just like woo-woo, as these things sound. It's very grounded in just relaxation and letting go of some tension, because if you're constantly carrying around a tight jaw all day, it's going to hurt. You're going to get a headache. Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to think very clearly. Speaker 2: If you're in pain all the time, yeah, sometimes it is just sitting and doing nothing, or sitting and breathing. Other times it's practicing gratitude and focusing on what you're, you know, grateful for. But I've also used it as time to meditate on those things that maybe are not going so well and really embracing my like. There's a concept of like you identify your suffering and then you find the source of it, you take care of it and you work it through, and I really like that part of meditation as uncomfortable as that sounds is that if you're dealing with a difficult time or a difficult feeling, and I mean that and I understand the range of what difficult means you have to face it and you can't just turn away . You've got to look at that suffering and face it and really grapple with why Do I feel this way and then come up with how do we take care of this? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: One of the Buddhist practitioners that I follow. He passed away recently with they call him Faye. He talks about taking care of your feelings, like anger and sadness, and things like that as if they were a child. Like you look at it and you're like you sometimes even say like you know, I hear you anger, I will take care of you and you know. It sounds so strange like to say , say that, like you don't want to do that in your head that sounds a lot strange but if you try it, like there's something cathartic in that, like to to recognize it and say like, hey, like I'm going to take care of this thing right because it gives you a path forward, it gives you an intention like I'm going to take care of this thing and I'm going to calm it down, to go past it, to to help it heal. Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I think go past is the wrong word it's more like you're going to recognize it and and and help it, help heal from that thing I'm sure you've heard this, because what you're talking about sounds like something I've heard about, which is the verbalization of your fears that once you say it out loud it sounds pretty ridiculous. But the problem is you keep on keeping it in your head and the things that in your head always sound worse than when they come out your mouth. I teach public speaking and one of the things that I tell my students every year is the voice inside your head that says you can't do this is not helping you and you need to try this. I don't care if you're good at it, you just you need to have enough experience to be able to tell the voice in your head it's an idiot and it needs to shut up because it's not helping you get better. Speaker 2: You know it's funny. For some reason it reminded me of this. I can't remember who said this to me, but you have to have courage to be a little ridiculous, you know. Say it, yeah. So what? It sounds ridiculous. Say it out loud, You'll realize that things are a little bit more insignificant, or that it is funny, or? Speaker 1: whatever, or maybe it will make you feel better. Speaker 2: Like there was a book called the Happiness Trap and it had a lot of different exercises for dealing with trauma. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And some of them were just what we would call ridiculous, like it was, you know, singing songs, and it was intentionally that way. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: It was made to help you realize that you know, detach from that feeling a little bit and see it from the outside. So it was really because you know, you get embarrassed, like I forgot. I feel like it was. It had something to do with like a song, like you had to sing this feeling into a song or something, and I wish I could remember it. But I remember thinking I don't know about that. But then I just I did it and, lo and behold, that feeling didn't really have any power over me anymore. So it's like if you have a little courage to be a little bit ridiculous, those negative feelings don't have power over you. It's just a thing, it's just a perception you have. It's not reality thing, it's just a perception you have. Speaker 1: It's not reality. You're right. In the Christian life we talk a lot about prayer and it is my position, that it is my belief that prayer is mostly about us, and it sounds like it's a lot like your idea of what meditation is, although I think it's distinct. I think it's different, but I think one of the things you're not going to surprise God with what you're going to say I believe in a God that knows what we're thinking before we do and that has omniscience. In other words, he knows everything. And really, I think one of the things that prayer does for us is it reveals to us what we think is important. We keep on asking God for things that we think is important and I don't know that well, I do know we're not very good judges of that. We don't. I can see you nodding your head. None of you can see this. I can see you nodding your head . None of you can see this. I can. I worry about some truly stupid stuff. I'm not going to stop worrying about it, but I think what you're talking about there is just being able to focus, being able to figure out that not everything. Number one usually the worst things don't happen. Number two, and the worst things aren't usually all that bad and I probably survive it. Speaker 2: Like that, that's that right there, you'll probably survive it. Like, sometimes, before I, you know, got into Stoicism and Buddhism and all of this, I had that tendency to kind of go down the infinite rabbit hole of like what if, what if, what if? Speaker 1: what if? Speaker 2: And then one time my husband turns to me and said so what, what if let's play it out? And so we go through the absolute worst that could possibly happen and we just say it out loud Could lose our job, have no money, have no car. And then he's like but here you are, you know, and you're still there. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: You know you still have an opportunity to do, to be and be present, and that was very eye-opening for me at the moment you know, and it's true, like no matter how bad things got, there was still, I was still here. Speaker 1: Well, and let me kind of bring it back to what we're talking about, even if it's all taken away, there's still something to be grateful for. Speaker 2: It's true. Speaker 1: I know You've got a daughter at this point. How cool is that. Speaker 2: It's pretty awesome. She's a cool kid. She's a cool kid. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: But you know, I even thought about you know he's like . Speaker 1: Well, what if you? Speaker 2: died. I'm like, okay, yeah, what if I did? Uh-huh, I had time, I was here I got to be present on earth for 35 beautiful years, and I have a daughter oh my goodness, your child, first of all, your child. And she would remember me. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And I know that that would be in a positive light. And I don't have a relationship with my mother, so I can be very grateful for the fact that my daughter, even at this young age, is choosing to love me. That is very much a choice. And she wants to be there and to play, love me. That is very much a choice and she wants to be there and to play. And that makes me insanely grateful because I understand what it is to have the opposite and not to have to choose. You know, to choose that you cannot have that relationship with someone and no matter what, like even if I, you know I walked out the door and passed away. Today I'm fine, like that's okay. The world will go on In my view . I will continue on in other ways, you know, through my daughter, through my family, but also grass and trees and everything else that's, you know , as morbid as it sounds, stems from me dying. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: And that is okay. A cloud never dies is what they would say. It just becomes something else. Speaker 1: Yeah, I think all of us have that fear of death. I mean, as a Christian, I do believe in an afterlife. That involves heaven and things like that. And one of the things that I argue pretty strongly is I don't think too many people have looked at heaven as a real estate deal and I don't think it's all that important. The place I don't think is all that important. I think we often idolize heaven and that's a mistake. I think the value is the relationship, because I think I've been some really cool places, but it's more fun when my wife is there. And you know it's. It's kind of like that, wherever I'm living and my wife is there, that's home, but if she's not there, that's not home anymore. Yeah, and that's that's something that's really important to me, and I think, especially Christianity and Christians who get hung up on the concept of streets of gold and things like that, they're missing the most important part. I don't know if Buddhism believes in this, but I suspect it does that idea of relationship, trumping stuff oh, I guess, like material things come and go no, are you serious? Speaker 2: they're just like I'm sorry, but your permanent marker is not actually permanent . Um, that's, but that's wonderful. Nothing is Nothing is permanent . My daughter, as she is, is not permanent, so she's no longer going to be a little kid. She was a baby. She's now somewhere between a toddler and a kid, whatever four is. Speaker 1: Precocious as my four is. Speaker 2: Oh, yes, yeah, and she'll become a teenager and adult, so she's not permanent and I I'm grateful for my time with her and she is where that I can really identify with the, the statement wherever your wife is is home, and for me, wherever she is and wherever my husband is, that that's home for me. Yeah, when I grew up, like um, I didn't have a stable place to stay. We moved, I swear, every month. Um, people would ask me you know where do you live? And I'd have to like, think about it. Um, how many places did you live? Yeah, one, one minute. You know, my mom didn't have two pennies to rub together, nothing. Speaker 1: Oh bless her heart. Speaker 2: So we were all over the place. But I really am grateful for that, because then I realized like home wasn't a place. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: Home was a feeling like with my sister. Yeah, home was sometimes with my dad, you know, when we'd spend time with him, and now it's, you know, with my daughter and my family, wherever they are. That's home. Places change, we move, things change, but that love that doesn't change. It grows and maybe it does change over time, depending on the circumstance. I won't deny that, but that feeling stays, those memories stay, and that's really nice. That's home and something to be grateful for when they start rolling eyes. Speaker 1: That, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: But that said, I think, one of the things you said and I don't even know if you knew you said it it's that gratitude, that you're grateful to be with your daughter. And again you get to choose that . And again and we've kind of talked about this and we've kind of talked around it, but we've directly addressed it as well. We've kind of talked around it, but we've directly addressed it as well the idea of gratitude. In my opinion, the biggest value of it is it changes you for the better, it makes you a better person, and really, gratitude. It's easy to say this and it's hard to do, because all of us know this is hard to do, but it really is a choice. You get the facts of your life but then you get to choose the way that you look at those facts . And if you don't make that choice, you're an idiot because you're now living somebody else's script. If you want to make this good, you can make it good. And again, I believe in God, you believe in Buddha, and what we would say both say I think, is eventually this all works out . Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And like just to clarify like I don't believe in Buddha as like the same way as a God. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: And they're like Buddha was was a teacher, he was like a real person, sure, sort of um that sort of thing. And there's different, there's different types of buddhism, like there's there's mahayana, there's um zen, there's all tibetan buddhism, and everybody has their like a different view. Sure, it's kind of like, well, I grew up christian, I grew up pentecostal, and there were differences between the Pentecostal and Baptist. There was lots of differences. So it's very similar, but in my view, my personal view in this, because it's very different in that I'm not sure that my God is a person, you know, like sort of thing. But it's very difficult to explain because I think I'm still wrapping my head around it , you know. But I really agree with you on the fact that it is a choice. Like it's a choice to be grateful, and it's a hard choice to make sometimes. Speaker 1: It is. Speaker 2: Many times it is the hardest choice to make, but it is the best choice to make. Sometimes it is many times it is the hardest choice to make, but it is the best choice to make. If you can just find a reason to be grateful, to be happy, or just content or okay, or accept that you can pay it forward. It's like the foundation to happiness, to joy, to being okay , and then you can pay that forward to the rest of the people that you interact with. If you are. If you think about it this way, you come to something with an attitude of being grateful and now you're having a more like calm day that passes on to whoever you interact with. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: That positivity goes forward Right, conversely, goes forward Right, conversely. Like if you're having a, you know you're choosing a different way. Those interactions might look a lot different. They might be a little more negative. It might bring down others rather than lift them up. True, and so I see it like, yes , I am making a choice, but this isn't just a choice for myself, like I'm choosing to be grateful because now I realize that has a bleed effect over to other people. So I'm always going to tell people to choose to be grateful and choose to be positive. Feel how you're feeling and then choose to be positive and grateful, Because you'll see, that's where the miracles happen sometimes, you know. Speaker 1: What are you thankful for this year? Speaker 2: Oh, my daughter. That's hands down, but also, honestly, this is my first year at this job and I couldn't be more grateful. This is everything I hoped it would be, and more. I couldn't be more grateful. This is everything I hoped it would be, and more. And the ability to cultivate my learning and learn and grow is incredible. There's so much to be grateful this year. I couldn't we could go on forever, I could list it but I'm also grateful that I have that much to be grateful for. It's wonderful. Speaker 1: How about you? Oh, I think all the tried answers. I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for a job that pays the bills, I'm grateful for good-smelling shaving soap. Speaker 2: True. Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there's a story behind that. Go ahead. Speaker 2: Yeah, it just reminds me of, I know, my husband. He's always he would try to find the right clippers for his beard and I know he's grateful to find the right ones. It just reminds me of him so much. Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know the stupidest things are things that are fun for me, so that's one of the things I like smell. Smell is one of the things that is kind of big for me. So anyway, well, I tell you what I end all of my podcasts with be good and do good. What's good about finding things to be grateful for? Good about finding things to be grateful for. Speaker 2: I'm trying to put it into words that don't try to be profound, just no more. I think it is that pay it forward effect, like that's the beauty, like it's not just something that affects you. That choice to be grateful affects everybody else in your life yeah. The people you interact with. You can have a profound effect on someone else's life in such a small way just because you chose to be grateful and you'll find peace in that choice. When you look at something and you're like, wow, I can be grateful for that, there's peace there and I can't think of any greater good than helping others and finding peace. Speaker 1: I can help you find some destruction, so don't Well, Candice, I appreciate you talking to me. Speaker 2: No problem, thank you for to me. No problem. Thank you for inviting me. This is fun. Speaker 1: I appreciate Candice's perspective on gratitude and meditation. Episodes like this are easy to produce, but hard for me to apply because, frankly, it's often difficult for me to look on the bright side, especially when the stakes are high, at least in my perspective. Candice, thank you for a hard conversation that ended up making me better. I recorded this episode before Thanksgiving but was delayed for a few reasons. In the episode I talk about someone we knew was about to pass away. Well, that was my wife's grandmother, kate Petty. We have known for a while. Kate was not going to survive much longer and on December 3rd she did pass. So after Thanksgiving, when my family and I went to visit my family in Kentucky a couple of weeks later, we went to Atlanta to attend her funeral of weeks later, we went to Atlanta to attend her funeral. Kate was feisty, sassy and someone I see in my own children . She was quiet but not shy, but she loved her family and her God fiercely, and that's something I admire and respect. I've said before, in all crisis events, heroes are born. I don't talk a lot about this, but I watched my father-in-law, dan Petty, once again demonstrate why he's someone I admire so much, after weeks of being at his mother's bedside. Dan did the messy work of dealing with the details of death. Some heroes wear capes, but this one wears ties and continues to mind the tasks that makes everyone else's life easier, and continues to mind the tasks that makes everyone else's life easier. Of all the men I know, dan is someone without ego. He is a man of virtue and character, or, as I prefer to say, he's a decent guy. I hope to return to regular episodes now that both the holidays and the unforeseen but expected events are behind us. I'm grateful for you. I hope the things we talk about make you a better Christian. So until next time, let's be good and do good.