Talking to yourself, a conversation with Mark Dunagan

Speaker 1: In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about giving yourself advice. Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life. I'm Dr Kenny Embry. Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. I don't care how old you are. I suspect there are times when you wish you could talk to a younger version of yourself and give yourself advice. We can call these regrets or mistakes, but the fact is all of us know talking to a version of ourselves in the past is simply not possible. Sure, it's the plot lines of some interesting fantasy or science fiction movies, like the Back to the Future franchise, but we all understand we just can't have that happen. However, what is possible is talking to someone who is farther down life's journey than you are. I've talked about mentorship on the program a few times before and the conversation I have today slots very nicely into that topic. I decided to talk to Mark Dunn again about advice he would give a younger version of himself. I've talked to Mark before. He and his wife Cindy have been traveling in their RV for a while now, visiting different churches. Mark was in Wesley Chapel, florida, where I live and where he also owns a house, and we were able to get together a few times for a book club that I have with Edwin Crozier and a few others, and also just to sit down and talk for a while. Before they began their nomadic lifestyle, mark was an evangelist for many years in the Oregon area. So let's just start there. Mark, if you could talk to a younger version of yourself, what would you say? Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I would have listened to me and in fact I might have annoyed the current version of Mark, but I guess here are some things I look back upon the realization that math I was taking in school , that was God's math, that math is the way everything in the universe was put together. I often tell people the universe is like Mexican food you know how? A burrito and a taco enchilada they all have the same ingredients, but they're just put together differently. Speaker 1: The universe is like that. I understand what you're saying , which is when we look at the world and see all the patterns, this is God's pattern. This isn't our pattern and the idea that there's intelligence behind that. Again, we're looking at evidence that if we were atheists, we would definitely interpret the same stuff differently. I think you're absolutely right . I don't know that I would have listened to a 54-year-old guy when I was 16, 17, 18. I think there's an arrogance that comes with youth. Speaker 2: There is, I know, something that happened to me. I'm not sure if this happens with other people, but I started as a freshman in high school and you're nobody, I mean you're stripped of all dignity as a freshman. Speaker 1: The girls don't even see you anymore. Speaker 2: I think I still looked up to my teachers, but something happened between junior and senior year. I came back and a lot of the marriages had changed and all of a sudden I really did it like you guys are supposed to be the ones telling me how to conduct myself and live, and you guys can't even handle your own lives , and that really, I think, knocked me off the rails a little bit, maybe a little bit more cynical, and that really, I think, knocked me off the rails a little bit, maybe a little bit more cynical. Can I trust anybody or these people that are trying to teach me this? It doesn't even look like—because I remember and I wasn't a Christian there was a dance I was at right One of the school dances after the basketball or football game, yeah, and one of the teachers was chasing the other teacher around and it was almost like the kids were having to watch the teachers. So I don't know, I really didn't know what to read. I was not a reader. I love to read now, but no one really said, hey, you might want to read this or that, and since becoming a Christian, I've tried to catch up. What should I be reading, right ? What are the great works of literature. What are? Speaker 1: the great stories. Yeah, I completely understand that. One of the things that happened when I was probably 30, I stopped listening to music. I just started listening to stuff to try and learn stuff, and I don't know why, but that just became a lot more interesting to me than figuring out another way that somebody is going to talk about love and put it in eight bars of a musical. So that's one of the things that changed as I got older. I understand we're young and stupid. I think we're all young and stupid and we all make a lot of the same kinds of mistakes. But when you look at the dumb stuff that I did, I don't know if I'd be nearly as smart as I am now however smart I am if I didn't make some of those dumb decisions. Did you make any dumb decisions when you were young? Speaker 2: Oh, yes, one thing, though. Fortunately, I think a number of the really dumb ones maybe did not fully catch me. The things I think of is when I was younger, I was busy, quick. I really didn't spend much time trying to comprehend the directions, and I've tried to learn from that. Now I'm a lot more careful, like when I'm taking something apart or if I'm threading something. Hey, these people that engineered this product probably knew what they were doing when they put it together. And it's things like reread the instructions a couple of times, right, pull out all the pieces, take it a little slower. That's something I've tried to learn. The other thing is hey, if you need to address something, you need to address it because it's not going away. Thing is hey, if you need to address something, you need to address it because it's not going away. Like what problems left unresolved just snowball into a lot bigger problems. Speaker 1: They can yeah that's absolutely true. Speaker 2: And then I remember in high school as a freshman, the one thing I quit in life. I obviously quit some sinful things, but I quit football and I would not have been a star. But I always regret, even if I was set on the bench all year long, I didn't stick with it and that left a bad taste in my mouth that I'd quit something. And after that I did freshman basketball, which was no fun at all 18 players, seven of the kids played and the rest of us never played a single minute of the entire season and it was practices at 5.30 in the morning and it was cold and dark and it's the Oregon winter and it's like there were so many times like this is no fun. But I stuck with it because I just did not like that feeling of I didn't follow through on something. I began but it got hard, it was no fun, but something in me said that's not a good pattern to follow Because there's probably going to be a lot of things up ahead that are not going to be any fun at all. Speaker 1: That you're going to have to stick with. You're talking about persistence and patience and following through with a commitment. There are times to quit something. My NBA career was never going to get off the ground. I'm five foot six and there's a point at which I need to recognize I don't have the talent. I'm never going to be an NBA star. There are things that I can do that are uniquely my strengths. If I keep on trying to be an NBA star, I will pour a lot of effort into something that will never be that good. Let me ask you this way when is it a good idea to stop it, and what is it a good idea to? Speaker 2: keep on going. Oh, that's a great question. I'm not musically inclined. Speaker 1: I wish I was. Speaker 2: I had a little snare drum and my brother started guitar lessons and we buy sheet music for Rolling Stones, wild Horses, right. So we're in the back bedroom, he's strumming on the guitar, I'm playing on my little snare drum and our sister-in-law comes in because we had an older brother, like 14 years older, wow. So she said what are you guys doing? We're just rocking out. She sits on the bed for maybe 30 seconds. She, after hearing us, stands up, swears and leaves the room and a light bulb went on. What made my little brother like maybe we need to have a plan B? And I don't know if I have an answer to the question other than just the principles in scripture. But when you have parents, have you ever been to a concert? And there's sometimes some girl up near the stage and she's dancing. It's ugly dancing and she's saying come on, everybody, let's dance. No one ever told her she didn't have a mom and dad that said, hey, no one wants to see that. If you have people in your life that can do that for you, just say, hey, that's not a good look , and hopefully you have some people that. And I think I had a few people growing up that were like that. Speaker 1: What you're talking about. There is a backdoor way of talking about mentorship. There are only some people who can get away with saying something like what you're talking about. Yes, let me ask this question in this way, which is you're right. Everybody needs that person in their life that can quietly say you're being an idiot right now. You need to stop that, because that's not good for you, it's not good for anybody else, and you're just going to look more and more stupid. How do you start being a mentor to somebody who desperately needs one. Speaker 2: I think you have to be real and authentic. I don't know if you can go out. I don't think you can go out and advertise yourself like a mentor available here. That would be one thing I think in my life. Some of it has maybe shown up naturally. And, kenny, this is the frustrating thing. There are people that really need that. But there's two sides to this coin. One has to be willing to take the time to teach, but one has to be willing to listen. Over the years, I trained a number of younger preachers in Oregon, which was really a—I would encourage all preachers to—because I think it keeps you sharp. I think it keeps you from getting dull and stale and stagnant and maybe stuck in your maybe the way that you present things. One of the great things that helps you grow is having a younger guy watching you, and I know a lot of people. It's a lot of work, right? I'm going to be taking him out to lunch. He's going to go camping with us. He's going to be at the house. To this day, most of the guys I worked with on our trip that we did over the last three and a half four years I stayed in their homes. Some of them have come to stay with me. Are you really interested in a long-term relationship with this person? Maybe that's it. If it's like hey, I got five minutes for you, half an hour for you, whatever, and you're just one of many things on my schedule versus you could be part of my family in a sense now . And you'll always be part of my family in a sense now, and you'll always be part of my family. I think people can sense the difference. This guy really does have a genuine interest in what I become, kenny. The guys that I thought did the best in the program all who were willing to listen, the guys that really flourished Because they would get a lot of feedback , sometimes from me and sometimes from the congregation, but the guys that really took the time to listen to what other people were trying to tell them . Those relationships tended to blossom and bloom, and so did the guys. Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the trick, and you will recognize this. Everybody's willing to give out advice, and not all advice is very good. If you're a 19, 20, 21-year-old new preacher and you've got a room full of people that are all giving you conflicting advice, how do you decide what's good, how do you decide what you can safely ignore, and how do you decide they're actually criticizing themselves. They're not really criticizing me, because I think all of those things happen. Some people will give you advice that they consider is the best they can give, but it's just irrelevant. Some people will give you advice that you definitely need to take to heart, and there's some people that are not criticizing you. They're criticizing their relationship with their parents, and you just recognize okay, that's not anything I can touch. So, again, you're talking to a younger version of yourself. You're talking to a younger preacher, and how do you help them sort through all the stuff that may or may not be helpful? Speaker 2: One thing I would say is look at the source. Yeah, jesus said you'll know them by their fruits and hopefully, kenny, if a young person comes to me and says, hey , I got some questions, or whatever, hopefully it's, because maybe, hopefully, they've looked at my life, my marriage. Yeah, how I handle myself, I think that says my life, my marriage. Yeah, hell, I hand them myself. I think that says a lot. My relationships. Does this guy know what he's doing? Yeah, I would tell the young man look at your source. The person here is trying to tell you something. Does it look like they know what they're doing? And if they don't take it in and see what you can find with it? And if you find someone doing it right, their relationships look really healthy and their marriage looks really solid. And they've been married for so many years and it still looks like they like each other. Man that's, and you can tell that. You can tell when something's off. You can tell when something's off. Speaker 1: You usually can and I think one of the things that I've heard in the past and you might agree with this or disagree with this never take criticism from somebody that you would not take advice from, and there's a wisdom to that that I really appreciate. There are definitely people that are just willing to criticize because criticism is infinitely easier. Criticize because criticism is infinitely easier. It's easy to take a perfect standard and figure out how you fall short of that perfect standard without any idea that you're going to help them grow. That's not helpful. But when you come up against the perfect Jesus, whatever it is he's criticizing you on, you need to take seriously, because that's something you really need to work on. We don't have Jesus except for in a text. Now, how do you decide You're talking about? By their fruits? You shall know them and that's absolutely good advice. But some of these people are people you just met. If you're out of luck with having a history, how do you figure out if they have a good future? Speaker 2: Well, you know what? I think it's something I heard about Elon Musk and I'm not necessarily this huge fan, but I thought this was interesting. Engineers would come to him and say we have a problem. And they said I don't want to hear that, I want to hear we have a solution. And the thought was that someone said you can fall in love with the problem, and I think preachers can fall in love with problems, and sometimes you have a sermon and you go the sermon's about the problem. Speaker 1: Okay, but we know what the problem is. What's the solution? Speaker 2: And I guess one thing I would say is this person who has this criticism for you? Do they have any solutions? that they're bringing to the table for you? Do they have any solutions that they're bringing to the table? I think, kenny, sometimes, like if you're struggling with a temptation or addiction, I think you can tell by what people say to you advice or whatever, or solutions. I'm looking for someone with solutions and someone who just doesn't want to complain about how bad the world is, or the church or whatever. Okay, or we're not evangelizing , okay, what's your answer? I want to hear someone has answered. I love the idea, too, of going to the text and going back to Jesus. After a day I heard a story about the Hungarian Revolution of 56, which doesn't seem like many people. They've just forgotten about that right. So the people push back on the communist regime, but the Soviets come in with their tanks and troops and just crush it. But Western journalists were there for a while and they were interviewing people. And there was one girl who said man, they're trying to brainwash us in schools and they're telling us lies. And the journalist said to the mother your daughter's different , because a lot of the young people we're interviewing are afraid, sunken, timid. Your daughter's very confident. What are you guys doing? The mother says every night after dinner, we go down to the basement and we read the Bible and we wash their brains of the brainwashing. Not everything we hear is good, right, and even from other Christians not all advice that we've—even from solid people, right. And maybe I just need to pick up the Bible and read it and give myself a nightly bath, because we all reek a little bit at the end of the day in dealing with the culture we live in, right, the world we live in . I'm just going to go in there and try to cleanse myself a little bit of. Did I pick up any bad ideas today? I don't want those to root in my brain or my heart. Speaker 1: Oh yeah, boy. Yeah, I understand that. Going back to that idea of mentorship and helping somebody who's younger everybody at 17, 18, 19, 20, 20, you know, right in there they think they have all the answers before they even know a good question to ask. I call it the arrogance of youth, but it's also the arrogance of inexperience. What are some experiences that you've had that helped teach you something that was really important? Speaker 2: I was not raised in a Christian home. My mom was a little bit religious, my dad really. No interest in it. I might've been fifth grade. Summer was coming up. Mom had signed me up for a vacation Bible school. And man was I. Why do I have to go? Okay? So my mom tells a story about long before I was born. About a year or so, a cousin I had been in the Navy was an electrician, came back engaged, hit by a drunk driver. Okay, in the hospital his kidneys are starting to shut down. At that time there was nothing they could do. And he looks at his mom and says, mom, what's next? And my mom said and she did not have a good answer and she said I don't want you lying in the hospital bed one day not knowing what's next. So you're going. Man, I didn't have an argument to that, right, I don't know. That just stuck with me something that my mom said I need to know what's next. I love something. I think and maybe this is a good question you could ask someone that you're trying to help and they don't seem to be listening. If you keep doing what you're doing, what's going to happen? If you don't change anything, then what's the outcome going to be? And there was something Cindy said, because I met her and I was not a Christian when I met her and I was probably baptized about a month later after I met her, but I said something very foolish, and why? do I need to do what God says. And then she responded back because he's God. Sometimes it's those simple responses that clarify your framework, to say that's right, he is God. And who am I to argue with that ? If I cannot even alter one of the laws of physics of the universe, who am I to try to come up with my own moral standard? That's a very humbling thing. Who is God to you? Now I would say my and that's a great question, and I'm trying to explore that a little bit more Kenny, from a male side, because if I was a woman, some of the imagery in Scripture would be easier. The bride of Christ right, I'm part of the bride and this is my husband. It's a little weird for a man, right? I think the one that appeals to me now at this point in my life is the idea of a refuge. As you get older, you realize all the things that you don't have control over and man, all the bad and evil stuff out there , and some evil person could just sweep in and you don't even know it and wipe you out financially or whatever it is steal your identity. Speaker 1: That's a scary thought. Speaker 2: I've read a lot of the Psalms. More and often that's the theme is God's my refuge? God's my refuge. And also, the older I get try to realize that my health isn't my refuge, even though I appreciate it. Whatever money I have in my bank, in retirement, that's not my refuge, whatever assets or a home or whatever I have, or how the car is doing or et cetera. Because I think when I was younger I put more stock in that and I may have argued, yeah, god was still in there, but these other things were nice, these other things were little supports along with God, and I've tried to reach the point of none of that really. I appreciate that, but at the end of the day, that could all be gone tomorrow. And if I lost everything tomorrow health, money, et cetera like Job, could I still be able to rejoice that I have a relationship with God and that's more valuable than all those other things combined. Speaker 1: I agree with you that he absolutely is a refuge, but he's also—both of us have a little bit of mileage on our odometer. I'm 54 years old, my health is not what it used to be and all my investments are fine, but I'm looking at my retirement and I'm thinking, boy, this should be a lot more than it is right now and that's not very helpful for me either. And you talked a little bit about experiences and I'll go ahead and tell you I don't mind having stuff, I like stuff, but I would much rather spend my money on experiences than on stuff, because I would much rather reminisce with Katie, my wife, about what we did and where we went and things like that. Then, look, we got this nice lamp. I'll defend that. But the thing about it is, at the end of the day, I don't know that experiences do a lot for me either. It's relationships, and when I think about who God is, do you think that the relationship with God is the most important thing you got going? Speaker 2: Oh yeah, life is all about relationships. People will say what's the coolest thing you've seen on your trip? Nature's gorgeous, but it's the people. It's God's people. But, more importantly, none of that's going to work unless God's at the center. There's something in you that no earthly relationship can satisfy, which CS Lewis, I think , said is proof that you've been created for another world. That's where the rubber meets the road, and I think that's an issue of do you trust that or don't you? Because I think some people hit that wall, kenny, and say I'm going to stay with my stuff. I think every Christian reads a point like okay, am I willing to really put him first? Because that's a scary thing. Yeah, Right, but man, and I don't know how many people push through on that. Jesus said the way is narrow, but man, the reward is. I see people and as we've traveled, I've seen people that I would say. I went looking for the good as we traveled, and so I tried not to go looking for the bad, but I think I did run into people that were modern-day Josephs and Daniels that really were that. Yeah, they're all in Kenny, it's interesting. As a child, I ran into a number of bad examples that could have completely turned me off from the faith. I remember being in an Episcopal church Bible study as a kid and the teacher was talking to us about knowing the flood and everyone's coloring their picture and he said oh, by the way, kids, none of this really happened and I caught that Nobody else did and I think I put my foot down. After that, I'm not going, I'm not giving up my Sunday for something. That's not true. So that threw me off. For a while. Had a number of relatives that were very inconsistent, pretty much hypocrites religiously. But, kendi, when I was in sixth grade, when I went to public school, your mom and dad could sign a form that a lady would show up maybe once a month, maybe once every two weeks, take you to a little church next door up the street. You would have a Bible study and you would sing songs, pray and come back. That was allowed. We'd been told that week that this woman who probably had been coming and getting us from second or third grade, her son, had died in Vietnam and she had been told that day she showed up and she took us up there and did what she had done before and brought us back, and I put that in the back of my head and said not everyone's inconsistent Mark. There's something real about that. Maybe one day you'll figure it out, but there are some people that are all in that stuck with me. Not everyone's a hypocrite. There are some true, genuine people out there. Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I would say is I'm a hypocrite. I know I have been. If you are somebody who knows that you could be better, what should you be doing? Speaker 2: You talked about and I think this is great advice for young people. What should you aim for? We should aim for the ultimate good. What's that? That's God, that's a relationship with God, and obviously they might push back and say, but that's going to take a lot of work. You read like Ephesians 5, it says walk in love just as Christ loved you or be imitators of me as I'm of Christ. And you go like are you talking to me? Because you almost wanted to say to Jesus do you really know who I am, my faults and et cetera. And he's saying no, I'm telling you to do that. You're going like man. That's going to take a lot of work, but can you think of any endeavor more rewarding than I'm going to seek to pattern myself like the Son of God in every aspect I can? I realize I never could become God, but I'm going to seek to become like Jesus. There was a book called my Antonia. The writer talked about a character that her brothers. As the brothers grew older, they became more and more like themselves. I don't want that. There's too much of Mark already. I want to become more and more like Christ and Kenny. Wouldn't it be worth it to throw everything into that and see what would the best version of me look like? And not only that. But I know I can never pay Jesus back for my salvation, but it seems like at least a nice gift would be the best version of myself through your help, through your word and through the help of your people that I tried to bring about. It doesn't always feel comfortable because maybe it feels you've never landed. I feel that way now. Speaker 1: I feel that I haven't landed right. Speaker 2: I'm still up in the air a little bit, but maybe that's the way it should feel. I always want to have that element of me that's not set in concrete yet, that there's still more of me that can come out in a good way, that I'm still moldable, I'm still pliable. I'm still moldable, I'm still pliable. I know young people and I even get this voice. Today, when you hear a voice that will say you can't do it, someone will say something and automatically almost hear yourself saying you can't do that. There's more than one possible me. There's all sorts of versions of me that could exist, like a low-functioning, a high-functioning, whatever, but there's more than one future and there's more than one me in the future. Right, and you should think but I want that to be the best version of me I can make it, and I think that just means that, man, all the things that we do on a daily basis may be like this, because I know there's a number of people like I'm not getting on talking on some podcast, right, I can make a mistake or whatever. I would really encourage people to push themselves. Do uncomfortable things. Speaker 1: Why. Speaker 2: God deserves that, the kingdom needs that, the local church needs that, because that's the people that go out and talk to their neighbors. That's the people that go out and talk to their neighbors, or that's the people that try to have the—that's the people that are willing to have the uncomfortable conversations when they disagree and try to work like—I really like the idea, kenny. How can we approach this? Like in marriage, or you're having a disagreement with someone? How can we approach this where we both win? Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And, more importantly , god wins. Does God need to win? Let me rephrase that, kenny, he is going to win. The only question is will he be glorified in my life and in the church I'm a part of, in the family I'm a part of, in the marriage I'm a part of? Speaker 1: Maybe that's it. What kind of insecure God do you serve that needs glory all the time? Speaker 2: You know, in the book of Acts, chapter 17,. It really is interesting where it says that God doesn't need anything but at the same time he is glorious, I mean, and I have the chance. I guess it's like with marriage . I don't know if marriage needs any more reinforcement, but it would sure be nice if my marriage is honoring to the institution, Right. So I don't think it's an aspect that he's vulnerable on that point or jealous on that point. It's just that's who he is. that he's vulnerable on that point or jealous on that point, it's just that's who he is, and in light of everything he's done for us, I really need to tell other people how great he is. I think that does me a lot of good too, because I think something's going to be glorified, kenny, something is going to be glorified You're right, I don't know. Speaker 1: I've used this quote several times, which is Cecil B DeMille, when he was promoting the Ten Commandments, the movie that he did. Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was family lore in our family. Yeah, with Yul. Speaker 1: Brynner. Speaker 2: My daughter, Ashley, can quote vast sections of that movie. Speaker 1: One of the things that Cecil B DeMille said and I don't know if it was originally with him or not, but one of the things that he said is we do not break the Ten Commandments, we only break ourselves against them. Yeah, and I think when it comes to, does God need our adoration ? Does God need our glory? No, god didn't need us. The fact of the matter is, god was doing just fine without us and will do fine without us, but we need God. And when we start thinking about why do we need to glorify God? He didn't need it. He never needed it. But if you can't get off your high horse and recognize that you're an idiot and that your decisions are not usually that good, and there's somebody who's smarter than you are, that has already figured this out and he's willing to give you answers if you look for the answers, but he's not going to force you to take those answers If you want to make yourself like Pharaoh, and that this is I think this is the way God hardened Pharaoh's heart. He thought of himself as a god and because he thought of himself as a God, when Moses says, you need to let these people go so they can worship me not you, me. Pharaoh could not respond to that, because he already thought of himself as equal to or better than the God that we have . Who was he hurting? He wasn't hurting God, he was only hurting himself in that situation. Does that make sense? Speaker 2: Yeah, and the entire nation, you know, kind of went down with him right. To me, kenny, that story is so amazing because after the death of the firstborn, and they let him go right, yeah, but then they have a change of heart like what have we done? Well, could we start with a review of the Nile turned to blood? Remember that and remember the death angel shows up. Because when I look at that because a lot of people go, why would you do it? Because most are not going to obey you and all of that type of stuff. But it's almost like God says but people need to have at least the opportunity of this sort of life, right, man? That is a rip. And when I realize that I'm going okay, so God doesn't play it safe and I want to live in such a way that there's many years between me and my older brother, like 14 years, wow and my parents were even thinking about adopting and my dad was getting close to 45, and they were going to cut him off at that time adopting and my dad was getting close to 45, and they were going to cut him off at that time. And my mom starts not feeling well and goes into the doctor and he says you're pregnant. She says I can't get pregnant. We've been trying to have a baby for 14 years. You're pregnant. But then he says don't get any hopes up for this child, because this child's probably going to be born, born dead, because there was a rh negative factor between her and my dad. That was really bad, or he's going to be severely you know, mentally disabled and my dad was about 45 and I was born thanksgiving day and bright, healthy, and my dad wasn't really excited about being a dad again. He has this 14. He's getting ready to retire from the navy right right now. Here comes another baby, but this is something that I was told years after he passed away. But my dad said what just seemed like mark wanted to be here. I'm hoping that's still my attitude. Am I living in such a way where I just really look like, hey, I want to be part of this and I don't want God regretting my existence. I'm glad Mark was born. I'm glad Mark had the opportunity to live. So, with all the things that comes at you in life, that's really what I'm working on. Is Mark's still happy to be here to be part of all of this? Speaker 1: Yeah, when you're young and we've been talking around being a mentor and talking around, but honestly we're also talking very directly to. These are values that younger people need to understand and they won't understand them when they're young Because it takes a couple old guys like you and me to tell them that these are roads that have destinations. But once you end up there the 401k not a bad direction to go, but once you end up in 401k land , there's so much less than it can offer you. Taking all the vitamins, make sure you're getting all the exercise. There are advantages to this that it does make your body not wear out quite as quickly, but there are limits to what that will be. If you're talking to somebody who's younger and you know this because you were younger what priorities have changed over your lifetime? Speaker 2: Time. You don't have as much time as you think you have, yeah, so I don't do any television and I'm not telling people that's bad, but it just with the time I have left. Yeah, Wow, there's a lot of books I haven't read yet. Or podcasts or interviews, yeah, or things with really smart people or whatever it may be. You know, one is time management Right, one of really redeem the time and make every opportunity count. The other thing I think would be is do not resent the unexpected. That's something else. I tried to change that about myself because that means that I'm going to learn something. Hopefully I'm going to grow, have a chance to exercise some patience. Don't resent difficulties, the unexpected things not going as planned in your life. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And I guess that importance of relationships and, while they're alive, tell people how much they've meant to you. Yeah, someone went to a funeral and they said people at the funeral were pretty important people and said some wonderful things and it dawned on him but the person who died heard none of it. Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a writer and he was making the point. He said you know, right after you die, the best people in the world are going to come and see the best things about you and you're going to miss it. And that's a party you would actually enjoy being at. Speaker 2: Something else that safety is an illusion. There is no safe place here. I learned that, hopefully. I learned that on our trip when we left Oregon during the height of COVID 2020, and people said, ooh, I don't know if it's a good time to travel, but right after that the wildfires came through and about ran people out of their homes and it's like there is no safe place . I'm looking at my health and I'm looking at this and I'm looking at that. I know my dad saw the doctor a week before he died. Goes in the doctor, says looking good man, drops over dead a week later. And the other thing is, if you're not taking care of your soul, you are going to disintegrate. That's something I think has changed over the years. I think when I was a new Christian, I had this idea that there were people in the world that maybe they would not become a Christian and they weren't going to go to heaven, but at least in this life they could probably somewhat keep their life together. And now I don't believe that anymore. If you don't have God in your life, I think you are disintegrating on a certain level. The more I get to know people, it's like not everything there is as advertised, that you are and I like that word disintegrate. You are falling apart because it's that, I think, kenny, it's your soul and you might say spirit too, but I think that's what keeps you, your feelings, your thoughts, your fears, in the proper perspective. Your body, all of that, that's that thing on the outside, that kind of keeps it all nice and organized without it just like flying apart. I was talking to someone at the college the nursing program, right and I think she said some of the students said why do we have to take all these Bible classes? We're going to be nurses, right ? She said those are the classes that are going to keep you together, because you're going to see death, pain, sorrow, people are going to die in your arms. That you got to know. And if you don't have God, you're going to fall apart. It's just one of those things. The Bible's right. You got to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Don't get this idea that I can give God about 60% or so and it's all going to work. I don't think it's going to work unless every part of you is in on this. To me, the most challenging thing is reining in the thoughts , that is. I'm only going to think about what's true. But this is sure fun to think about over here. Okay, but it's not true. Yeah, but it's enjoyable, but it's not true. Man taking every thought captive of 2 Corinthians 10 to the obedience of Christ Hopefully we're still working on that and giving that a good effort until we die. I always think about, as you get older, what if I get into a point, kenny, that basically it's. I'm just in a room in a chair and people bring me stuff right and I'm stuck with my thoughts. I want those to be some good thoughts rate. Speaker 1: And again, if I'm talking to somebody who's younger, I think one of the things that that I'm somebody who likes to study things. I, before I make an investment, I look at the company, I look at what they make, I look at if I like what they are and if I do that like their values and things like that. But there comes a point where and this is my problem I fall into the paralysis of analysis that I will think that I can anticipate every problem, that I can anticipate every, and at some point there comes a point where you actually have to pull the trigger before you know all the information, because you'll never know all the information. Important part of any of these things and we've talked about this at the very outset which is what's really important to you, and if it's relationships, are relationships more important than getting more information, than investing more in the stock market? Because here's the thing and you probably already know this, mark the best times that I've ever had with my children are usually in the car, going someplace, and it's going to the track meet where I have the most important conversations with my kid. That's trash time to me. That is time that is unfilled, that is wasted time. It's on the way to something else. But when I look back over it, the most important parts of my life were like what you're talking about. I was on my way to doing something else and the most important part of that was not the track meet, it was the conversation we had on the way. It was teaching my kid about values while I was dropping them off at their friend's house. That so much of. If a relationship is really all that important to you, do not have the hubris to think that you can anticipate all the important parts, because the important parts will sneak up on you. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you agree? Speaker 2: with this. It's the informal. Someone said the things that your kids will probably remember more than anything else would be those informal teaching moments. And I was thinking the other day so what did I learn in school? And I went grade by grade. Fifth grade, I got the times tables 1 through 12. Sophomore in high school was typing, but the other years I can't tell you what I learned in that year. Now, maybe it's because I never went on into the academic world . Okay, yeah, but I can't tell you a single mathematical equation. I ever learned a single mathematical equation I ever had , and so it wasn't the things in the you might say official. The things that I will remember will be things like my dad died when I was 20. And in a certain sense I don't remember a single thing he ever said to me, almost like a single conversation, okay, like a meaningful thing. But I remember after he died and there was a period of my time of time after high school and a little bit during high school. I was really in a dark period, coming home drunk and stuff like that, and my mom said I worried about you and I talked to your dad about that. Of course, my dad is now gone and he never told me this, but he said don't worry about Mark, he will always be there for you. And that tells me that, even though I was being a knucklehead and jerk at the time, there was something he saw he never told me face-to-face. I believe in you, but that's what that conversation and that was just an informal, it was not an official moment, just one of those informal situations, right, yeah, Almost like just mom decided to say that. But the thoughts of childhood are long thoughts. I will remember that the rest of my life and it's almost it's the same thing, Kenny, I think, is that the times that your kids will remember with you is not the times you spent the most money on vacation. Yeah, they're going to remember just some regular time that you guys went and did something that didn't cost a whole lot. Yeah, those are the important moments, but we often consider them like this is just downtime. Yeah, I agree. Speaker 1: Again, the conversation that we've been having has basically been talking about values and what kind of values you need to communicate to a younger generation, and I think one of the things that that and I know it's when we look at the idea of culture and the culture that we live in. I'll go ahead and say this I I think it's easy for us to criticize culture, because culture is always criticizable. It's always the world that's. That's exactly right, and back in ancient it was Babylon that that was the problem. But there's always been a Babylon. There's always been a problem. The culture has never gotten it right. And, honestly, when we look at criticizing culture, it's always easy because it's always out of step with Christianity and, frankly, you can often impose on culture with what you think are the problems that they have, which is fair. There are a lot of problems with culture. But let me ask you this and again, we've been around a while what's truly changed? What's really changed? What do we really need to worry about? What's popular today? Speaker 2: Well, temptation is one click away. Yeah, which, kenny? I don't like that, but I think it's a fair test of who I am, because if you can live in a culture where temptation is one click away and resist, I think you're the real deal. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: And that would be just. Maybe that's not the sum total of the test, but at least that would be one marker indicator I worry about. It seems like people have a hard time having face-to-face conversations anymore. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: I get that. I worry about knee-jerk reaction. With the internet, the world can have a knee-jerk reaction all at once. Yeah can have a knee-jerk reaction all at once. Yeah, I'm not a big sci-fi guy, but one of the movies I remember I had when we were in oregon vhs movie was forbidden planet. Yeah, and the krell, I think, were on the verge of bringing all their consciousness together and moving to another level of existence, whatever, and they forgot about the fears and the darkness within them and they destroyed themselves in one night. Was the plot of the movie right ? They forgot about the darkness and they created this huge monster as a result of that. I worry about the internet like that is that it really has sped things up as far as I. I worry about where it's almost like that's where all our consciousness is, and but what all? Where all our fears are rooted? Yeah, and are we just and the the capability of that to take us down to, to destroy us? But there's something. Something else, though, I think, is that I don't watch a whole lot of sports, but I like what someone said about Nick Saban. What they liked is if another coach imploded, nick would go and show up with a rope and a shovel and say I see you've dug yourself a pit. Can I help you get out? I like that. That's always been a challenge for us. If you see someone has really made a mess of it, instead of gossiping about them or, unfortunately, finding joy in that, I think our culture really loves to tear people down. Can I be the person who shows up with the rope and the shovel and says I'm here to help out? Except for the grace of God, I could have probably done that, or maybe I did that and it didn't blow up as much for me when I was stupid like that. But I love this idea of in a culture that becomes more impersonal, people should be able to look at the church and say they're the experts on how to make relationships work. They should be able to see that . And here are the people that know how to make relationships work. They should be able to see that . And here are the people that know how to work through difficulties either in a marriage or between brethren. I hope that we could. As much as we were known for knowing the Bible, I hope that we would be known just as much for these people know how to make relationships work. Speaker 1: I'm not going to disagree with that. We have some of the same problems in the church as well. Yes, I think this is a generation that has answers but don't know any of the context to any of the answers. They have learned how to use Google, they have learned how to use all the right keywords, they have learned how to find the answer just in time, but they don't know what the answer means. They have learned how to find the answer just in time, but they don't know what the answer means. Look, and I think that's a danger. I think the other thing that I really do truly worry about with this generation is they do so poorly with boredom, they do so poorly with unfilled minutes, and the way that they fill them is triviality and just vacuousness. In other words, they don't think about anything. If it doesn't come easily, they get rid of it, they're done, and I can't tell you how grateful I am for a mother who said don't come home before it's dark. Speaker 2: What do? Speaker 1: you want us to do? I don't know, but you're not going to do it here and you're going to figure this out. My kids again, and I am a technology cheerleader. The same thing that you're saying, which is this can show you so many bad answers, can just as easily, if you figure out how to do this well, show you really good answers. It can connect you with people that you will never have the ability to meet face-to-face. That can change your life in very positive ways. I'm grateful for that, but I recognize the opposite is just as true and maybe more true. It can fill your life with cat videos. That will not help you at all, but they will distract you to no end. Speaker 2: Oh yeah, those are great observations. I consider myself blessed being born and where in Oregon, when the winter gets dark at 430 on a dreary day and bedtime was like 8 or 9, right, and mom's not going to allow us to just watch TV. I had to learn to entertain myself. I had to learn to get in my own head and come up with scenarios and when I was berry picking, that's what my mom really taught me of how to work through that difficult part of the day, when you're bored and you're hot and you're tired, but mentally get in a good spot. I think what you said is those are some really great thoughts. One thing I'd like to add to that is. I like what someone said about a career Chase good management, and I think that's the same thing spiritually and maybe with the mentor chase good management. Always choose good management over money. These people know what they're doing right. They know how. This is a great company. They got a great product, but they have great customer service . This is a great company. They got a great product, but they have great customer service . And those are the people that I want to build with my network of people. I want the good management people and you're going to need a network, but not only that. As you grow older, you're going to need to keep building that network, because Cindy and I have seen couples that we thought we were going to be doing things in retirement with and it stayed together or they didn't stay faithful right or they died. When I'm down here in Florida, that's what I'm trying to do is keep adding people to that network people that will encourage me and build me up and people I can learn from and grow and stuff like that and keep adding those people to your life, and all the way through, because people are going to come in and out of that. You're going to lose some friends too. They're going to come in and out of that. I think you just need to keep adding people to that. Speaker 1: Summarize what we've been talking about, because I think the mistake somebody could hear is that this doesn't have a lot of structure. But I'll go ahead and tell you I've come away with at least five different things that we've harped on pretty clearly that if you were going to try and influence somebody else, especially somebody who's younger, what are some of the important things that they need to hone in on that a couple old guys like you and me can actually teach them about. Speaker 2: Protect your headspace, protect your heart. Yes, yeah, I love the idea there's more than one version of you. Yeah, Plan your steps to bring about that high-functioning version of you. And Kenny, I really Kenny. The interesting thing as we travel, there are people I know and I will run into a low-functioning version of them and say that's what they would have been like without God, or guess what. I will run. I know people that are very low-functioning and I'll run into someone that has it together and I'll say it didn't have to go that way, that would be something else. Avoid the spiral of futility. You're going to get hurt, A relationship's going to end, Someone's not going to want to date you, A girl's going to throw your heart in a Cuisinart and you're not going to get the job you want. You may sound like you want to be a doctor and they might say you're just not that smart. The easy thing is, when you get hurt, to isolate yourself and to get bitter, and I think for a couple years of my life that happened to me. I started to isolate myself, feel sorry for myself and get bitter, and that's a downward spiral and I guess I would say is don't let that happen to you and if you see somebody else understand what they're going through and try to pull them out of that. Being a Christian has made a difference in every single aspect of my life. Don't sell it short. It's going to transform you. Speaker 1: I think one of the things that you said that really kind of resonated with me it's the relationships that will change you. And you're talking about a relationship with God and you will always fare poorly in that relationship because you're never that good. But the more you chip away at the parts of yourself that are not more like God, the better off you are. Again, number one that idea of relationships, the relationship you have with God, the relationship you have with people. What relationships are important for you to get rid of? Because not all relationships are good for you and you're not good for all people. There's some relationships where you're cutting that relationship is actually better for them that maybe it's a good idea for you to sever that connection. Do you see what I'm? saying there Do you agree? Speaker 2: with that. Yeah, you're not the answer. You're not the person necessarily to fix everybody else. Someone else might be a lot better than you. Speaker 1: Right, yeah, the other thing is and we didn't talk about this, but I think you agree with this that you better have a pretty good idea of what success looks like before you let somebody else try to impose their idea of what success looks like. Speaker 2: Oh yeah, anytime I see the ad of and multi-level marketing is like this Two people in their 30s on jet skis and they're retired. No, that's a lie. Okay, you're right. What does success look like? Hopefully the Christians listening to this podcast. Kenny, I remember years ago, new Christian, someone would hit you with something out of the blue trying to trip you up, Absolutely absolutely. And I'd try to have a Bible answer to it and I'd look back and feel like I wish I'd had more time, I wish I'd encountered that later. I think my answer was true, but it just was not the best answer . Right, it was not the best, yeah, and if you're thinking that you'd like some of those opportunities back, here's what I would tell our listeners. But you won the argument in the sense that the last 20, 30, 40 years of you just trying to live a consistent, godly example, you've won and I think we don't think about that enough, kenny, of how far we've come, yeah, how far we've come, and you've won that argument. Life is saying that, yeah, hopefully, your marriage is saying that, and the relationship with your brethren are saying that. The peace you have and the orderliness of your you might say your mental life or your spiritual life and et cetera, and the depth that you have now Give yourself credit for how far you've come. I don't think we put enough value on somebody else caring or the sense that they care about what happens to me, Kenny, I heard about in hospitals you will have babies that will be born to mothers that are drug addicted and stuff like that. Mother leaves or flakes out or whatever, and there are volunteers that come in Kenny and just hold these babies and you can have a baby that's completely healthy and that baby can die if it doesn't get physical touch. And I think that just something struck me that said and again, this is not being against medication, because I appreciate all the stuff we have, oh, me too but there are limits to what medication can do and on a certain level medication cannot take the place of human touch and just someone in your life saying you, you matter. Speaker 1: Mark, we've talked a lot, what did we miss? Speaker 2: I don't know. Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot more that we could talk about. I'm sure there's a lot more we will talk about at some point. I enjoyed it. I end all my podcasts with be good and do good. Yes, what's good about being a mentor to somebody? Speaker 2: You'll gain more than they do. Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this. I really enjoyed this. Speaker 2: Thanks for the opportunity. Speaker 1: I realize these are two middle-aged guys talking about what it meant for them to learn stuff as they were growing up, but I think one of the things that I appreciate about having a conversation like this is it starts helping us put things in perspective. What's really important, what did we learn as we were growing up and what do we think we know now? That, I think, is just as valuable for people who want to be mentors as it is for people who need to be mentored. I appreciate what Mark had to say. For people who need to be mentored, I appreciate what Mark had to say. I think one of the things that I learned from Mark and it was kind of underlined is the importance of relationships and just seeing yourself as a part of a bigger picture where, quite frankly, you are not the main character. You are simply a part of God's story. Thanks, mark, I appreciate having this conversation with you. As for the good thing I'm thinking about, I want to say again that I appreciate so much your listening to these programs . These are the conversations that change my faith and I appreciate this more than you know. I've been working with Hal Hammons with the conference. He has been basically taking the lead on this much more than I have, and I am so grateful for Hal and what he's doing. I do plan to have some announcements very shortly. I recently contracted a new provider rather than Hoova, so I am just finishing up the details with that. I hope you've noticed also that I've been putting out some shorter episodes called Balancing the Christian Life Quick Thoughts. I've wanted to experiment with a shorter format for a little while now, just to see what they sounded like and to see if they made any sense. Let me know if you like them, let me know if you don't like them, and I appreciate your feedback on that. So until next time, let's be good and do good.