Basic Christianity: What is sin, a conversation with Keith Stonehart

Speaker 1: In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about the problem of sin. Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life. I'm Dr Kenny Embry. Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. Why is sin such a big deal? I think all of us know it's bad , but how bad is it really deal? I think all of us know it's bad , but how bad is it really? We've all done it. If it's forgivable and it is then why should we be worried about it at all? I think, as Christians, it's almost impossible for us to see sin as anything more than an irritation or a minor inconvenience. And yet that's not how it's presented in the New Testament. And yet that's not how it's presented in the New Testament. There it's big and terrible and unable to be overcome. But hey, I prayed last night and I asked for forgiveness, so why even worry with it Again? As Christians, I think we are so excited about getting to the solution that we ignore the problem altogether. So in this episode I want to focus on the problem of Zen. This is another in the series of basic Christian ideas which I think deserves both attention and elaboration. I'm bringing back an old friend, keith Stoneheart to do a thankless task. To answer the question of how bad is it really? Keith is an old friend and an evangelist in the Birmingham area. I've talked to Keith a few times about his story, which involves a life of sex, drugs and rock and roll. Literally, I knew he would have a good handle on this topic, but please don't fool yourself. If you're honest, you do too. We're all sinners. Keith and his wife, kelly, are recent grandparents and he's just an excellent guy. So, keith, let's start here, what is sin? Speaker 2: Oh man, what a deep question. I'm going to do my best to not go full preacher on you and just talk like a regular guy. I mean, we know the biblical definition of sin is missing the mark, right, but it's such a deeper concept than simply missing the mark, because there's so many things wrapped up into it. It's the motivation for missing the mark and I think that it's a multi-layered principle that I'm not sure that we can answer in one sentence. We know that sin separates us from God. We know that sin is the reason Jesus had to die. We know that sin is the thing that we battle internally every day, and yet I'm not sure we would all know it. When we see it, we pray to God to forgive us of any unknown sins. So it's proving the fact that sometimes we don't know it when we do it. I think at its core, aside from it being the missing of the mark, it is the deception of believing that I hit the mark in the first place. Speaker 1: You know, I think you're right. I think one of the things that I would say at the very beginning here is that if we're going to define sin, you kind of have to go back to the first one, which has to do with Adam and Eve in the garden, and the curses of sin in Genesis 3. Basically talk about now that you've done this thing that you weren't supposed to do. Here are all the things that are going to happen to you, and it's a bunch of separations. It's a separation of God for man. It's a separation of Adam and Eve. To a certain extent, it's a separation of man for man. Another curse is that when you work, everything is going to get a lot harder, and it's a separation of man from nature. And really, when it comes down to it, sin is basically violating a law that God has put into place, and he has put laws in place that are both moral but also natural. Do you see what I'm saying there? Speaker 2: 100%. Yeah, do you agree with that? No, absolutely, and I think it does echo back to the first sin. Yeah. I don't think Adam and Eve thought it was going to turn out like it did, because you know what I mean. Otherwise they wouldn't have done it. They knew the rule right. The law was for the day you eat of it, you will surely die Right. And Satan steps in. He adds three letters N-O-T. Yeah, surely you'll not die Right. And that small three-letter word changes everything. Yeah. And I think in that moment they didn't think it was going to happen because they believed him . They were deceived. That's why I'm saying I think that sin is essentially the deception, that you didn't, that they thought they were doing the right thing. And I think nine times out of 10, when people sin, they think they're doing the right thing. It's amazing the way we can justify sins of all kinds of natures in our minds. Right, for the man who commits adultery, or for the man who views pornography, he can justify that sin in his mind because he feels that injustice has been done to him, he feels that he's been slighted or he has been withheld from or something to that nature. And so a man can justify that. A woman can justify the withholding of intimacy from her husband, believing she's justified for doing that, ignoring fully what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7. And she believes that she's right for doing that, not seeing the sin that exists in that. So I think it boils down to a deception of consequences. I don't think Adam and Eve thought what was going to happen , happened, or what happened was going to happen. Rather, judas, I don't think Judas thought for a second they were actually going to lay hands on Jesus. You see Judas' response when he sells Jesus out, I mean he repents. I mean he goes to them and he says this isn't what I thought. Take your money back. I mean he tries to repent to them and they won't have it. But I think that is because he didn't really think they were going to lay hands on him. And when they did, it was now he realized he sinned, because the deception was in his mind Nothing's going to happen, we're going to get their money, they're going to run in on Jesus and he's going to vanish, like he's done a hundred times before , and then we're going to have their money and it'll be a big joke on the Jews and then we'll continue on and when it actually happens, the reality of that deception sets in, and so I think it all comes down to deception, and I think that's why, too, all comes down to deception, and I think that's why, too, that Satan is called the father of lies, the deceiver that sin begins with deception. Speaker 1: One of the things that Paul will tell us in the book of Romans is that all of us have sinned, that. It's not like we have an academic idea of what sin is. We understand sin because we're all participants and it's something that we've done. If all of us have done it, if the first man and the first woman instigated, it is sin a really big deal or not, it seems pretty common. Speaker 2: Well, again, I think that's Satan at work. Huh, how many times do you hear someone say and maybe they are truly in a moment exercising piety, and they're truly humbly saying I'm just a sinner. Yeah, that's right. And they're truly humbly saying I'm just a sinner. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Speaker 2: And we all are, and we all are Right. But that phraseology has become so commonplace. We just accept the fact that I'm a sinner and therefore I don't try not to. It's going to happen anyway. It was the big deal. It's kind of like us when we make a New Year's resolution to diet and then by January the 5th we've blown it Well, because I messed up one time. Oh it's all blown, now Nothing matters, and then I go on the rest of the year not dieting because I blew it by January the 5th, I think sometimes with sin , it's the same idea that well, because I'm going to sin again, then I'm just going to accept that I'm a sin and when we do that we take away the seriousness of it, that it is a big deal, that every sin is a stripe on Jesus' back that I put . There is a stripe on Jesus' back that I put there. I think if we had real-time consequences for every sin that I committed, I got punched in the face Right. If there was an immediate pow, oh, I would probably sin a lot less. But because our consequences are often not immediate, they're delayed, maybe even to the end of my life. Maybe no one ever finds out that I did this sin or whatever. But God knows. And if I have desensitized myself to the seriousness of it to realize that it is a big deal , well then, why repent? It's not a big deal. Well then, why repent? It's not a big deal. And then you find yourself lulled into this complacency and I think that's where Jesus addresses the church and Laodicea that they're lukewarm. It's like they really have no opinion. They just well, everybody sins, come on, what's the big deal? Speaker 1: I agree it's a big deal, but why is it? I mean, you just basically argued for this, which is everybody does it. Yeah, Nobody is too worried about any kind of consequences, because all of us bear the guilt of those consequences. Speaker 2: Well, because the consequences exist, whether we are aware of them or not. That's what I'm saying. I think we've been lulled into this sort of half-asleep, half-awake lifestyle where we're not really awake to that because there isn't an immediate consequence often enough, and because of that we don't actually think there's not going to be a consequence. And what a rude awakening that'll be on the day when Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you. That's the reality. When he says in Revelation, liars, cowards, the detestable, I mean we don't think that's going to happen. I think that we have allowed Satan and the influence of culture, even within the church, to dumb us down enough to believe that it's not going to happen. That's the big deal is that we are blind. That's not what Jesus says, and so it is a big deal. I think what the reality is is that we're just asleep to that, we're just not paying attention. Speaker 1: I think one of the things that happens to us because it is so commonplace, because it happens every day, because nobody's too worried about it one of the things that we're not recognizing is what we're missing because we are participating in sin we could talk about sexual sins, for example and what you gain is immediate gratification. I mean, you get what you want when you want it, that's right, but what you're sacrificing are things like an intimate, long-term relationship, a family . Yeah, like an intimate, long-term relationship, a family . You're sacrificing things that are of infinitely more worth and , ultimately, if you sacrifice those things long enough, if you sacrifice those things deeply enough, and if you come to embrace the compromises, you will get rid of any opportunity to have anything that's perfect. You see what I'm saying? Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah, I think that's. The deception is that we trade willingly fillets for cheeseburgers. You know what I'm? Speaker 1: saying Don't knock cheeseburgers man. Speaker 2: Listen, I love a good cheeseburger, but if someone says, listen, you can have a cheeseburger in two hours or you can have a filet in two hours, you can have this cheeseburger right now. We often take the cheeseburger right now, right, and because it tastes good right now, it's filling right now and I don't think about the long term consequences. It's going to show up on me by the end of the week. You know, I don't think about those long-term consequences, I just think about right now. And so I think that that's why we don't realize how big of a deal sin is, because we don't see it right away. I got what I wanted and I'm satisfied for now, until I'm not again, and then I have to do it again. I've been beat up on by some other preachers about being a fluff guy, because I preach on the grace of God and the forgiveness of God, and I'll just tell you I mean the love of God. If you're someone that thinks that grace is a fluffy subject, you need to go back and restudy the subject of grace Because of this. What we're talking about that's what makes grace such a big deal is because sin is so egregious. It is such a big deal, and the reason why, the good news is not the good news, it's the best news, right, because I don't have to go to hell if I have this relationship with God, and that if I'm not willfully sinning against God, you know, look at the passage we often go to, and in Hebrews 10, he that willfully sins against God crucifies him afresh. And so we, we, we, we don't realize. That's why it's a big deal, because it is, people are going to go to hell. That's just the reality. There are people and there are members of the churches of Christ that are going to go to hell. Yeah, and I don't say that to be controversial, I'm just being real If you study grace enough, and you study forgiveness enough, and you study the love of God enough, this reality becomes even more prominent. Speaker 1: I think that, especially with this conversation, I need to set up the problem, Because I think one of the things that we get too comfortable with is the sinfulness in our own lives. It's that idea that we're going to yeah, I know it's wrong, but , and whatever happens after that, but it's the justification for why sin is not a big deal and we all know what happens after that. But we've all had that. We have provided that those phrases, because we're all sinners, every single one of us, and I know how to answer those as well, because I've had to justify my sin, All of us do. But why is it a big deal that I'm justifying it? Why isn't God just kind of on board at this point? Because he's recognized we keep on justifying the sin. Why hasn't he just said you know what? I know that sin is a big deal to you. I'm just let's drop this sin thing, let's. Just because none of you had done very well with it. It's kind of like you know, giving your kids chores and the kids don't do the chores very well, and so you just drop the chore chart. Speaker 2: You see what I'm saying I do, and you know what I chart. You see what I'm saying I do and you know what I think it's because he's a holy God and when we really understand holiness, holiness is a topic that doesn't get the attention that it should. I think we focus on so many different aspects of our Christian walk, whether it's our fellowship with God, or Jesus and his completed work on the cross, or discipleship or whatever. There's a lot of things we focus on, but holiness often falls to the wayside. For this reason, it's hard because of the reality that it imposes if god is holy, then nothing else is yeah, and we have to look at so okay, pretend , this microphone thing, this is God. So everything in this circle, this is God, this is holy, this is justice, right, everything outside the circle is non-justice. So, God's justice, this is non-justice. So, god's justice, this is non-justice. Now split that non-justice in half and you've got non-justice and you've got injustice. Injustice is evil, injustice is sin. Injustice is what we're talking about. Grace is a non-justice, grace is a non-justice, that when God extends to us mercy, it's an it's it's it go, it's it's we deserve. Yeah. Because we're out here, we deserve justice, and justice for us is death, but because we're extended grace, it's a non-justice that God extends to us because of our injustice. Right, right it's a big deal because of that. When you look at what it costs God to extend to us a non-justice, look at the cost. It's like you never really take for granted, or maybe a better way to word it you often take for granted that which you haven't fully appreciated or trusted in. If you're a kid and your dad gives you $5 every day for candy , you take for granted that $5 is coming. But when you understand that that $5 is all he has and he gives it to you every day, then it becomes more valuable and I don't think that we appreciate what it costs God to extend to us non-justice. And so I think, because of of we don't talk about holiness enough. It makes this idea of sin inconsequential. I think that's really the, the, the crux of it. We find ourselves thinking of sin as inconsequential when it in reality the, the consequences are are huge yeah, I don't know that's that's one. Speaker 1: That's one thought I think, if you, if you think of sin as a separator, eventually, I mean and we talked about sexual sin and what what it separates you from sexual separates you from things that are more meaningful it can. It can sexual sin, will, will, will basically remove you, remove you from intimacy, which you and I both know that sexual sex is great, but, but, but there's, there's something that's yeah, but but there's something that's, quite frankly, more important to me at this point, and that's the intimacy that I have with my wife. There's an intimacy there that is more important, frankly. That's right, that's part of it . Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean. What's it worth to be able to look her in the eyes and not look away, because you're ashamed of yourself? That's intimacy, that's intimacy. That's intimacy being able to truly reveal yourself, not this, this, that's right. I'm going to let you see me, right, and so you're going to look right into my eyes and see exactly who I am. Well, when we have that sexual sin present, that's the last thing we want to do it's a separator. It's a barrier and yeah, I don't want to trade that for anything. Speaker 1: Neither do I. And when you think about what sin does with our relationship with God, it is that separator. There's obviously an inauthenticity that comes with it, but also that God himself has defined the rules of the relationship, and nowhere in that relationship has he said you know what I want to let you keep on sinning, because sinning is basically violating a moral law that God has given us. And I'm not using moral law as some kind of separator there, because I think the law that God gives us is moral. I think that's kind of the tenor and tone of that. But if you decide that I want sin to be a part of this relationship, god can no longer be a part of that relationship anymore. Do you see what I'm saying here ? Speaker 2: I do, I do, I think that's what makes us I hope it makes us see again what it costs God to reach down and have a relationship with us. It took the death of his son I said this in my sermon Sunday one of those Christian paradoxes To reach down and have a relationship with us. It took the death of his son I said this in my sermon Sunday. One of those Christian paradoxes the worst sin ever committed on this planet was the murder of God's son. The best thing that ever happened on this planet was the death of God's son. Yeah. And what you realize is that where those two ideas cross, this paradox, where those two ideas cross, is the cost that the worst thing became the best thing. And so I think that's where we have to get to see that, to understand how big of a deal sin is, we have to see the cost. When my kids both became Christians, I showed them the Passion of the Christ. It's a hard movie to watch. I still can't watch it and not cry my eyes out because as a sinner who has sinned man, I get emotional talking about it. But that's me, that's what I did. I did that, and so when you have a visualization of the cost of sin, then you see the big deal. The trouble is is we don't often see that when we partake of the Lord's Supper on Sundays, we are commanded to remember. Remember what we weren't there, we didn't see it. All we have is a visualization in our mind of what it must have been like. But when you have something like the passion of the Christ or the chosen, you get a visualization of the humanity of Jesus. He was both God and man at the same time. Speaking of the chosen, I forget what episode it is. He's talking to one of the disciples I can't remember which one. They're talking about the impending crucifixion. Jesus quotes from Isaiah. He goes but those were just words. Now you're here, you're real, and so until it becomes real to us, until Jesus becomes real, it's just words on paper and I think we have to get past the paper to see the big deal and to see why it matters. It's because God's holy that it matters, because there was a cost, because of His holiness. That makes it matter. Speaker 1: The holiness of God is a hard thing for us to contend with because we just aren't holy and that comes as a result of choices we've made. And that comes as a result of choices we've made. And one of the other things we haven't really talked much about is sin. When you start laying it bare, it's, in my opinion and you're welcome to disagree with this it's selfishness. That really where sin originates and kind of ends, is me that I'm getting out of this, what I want and really what I. I said that sin is a separator and I think it is a separator. The natural consequence of us doing exactly what we want is we end up making things good for us and nobody else. But that comes at a price, and the the natural price of selfishness is nobody else benefits and you don't know this about yourself yet, but if you get everything you want, you will be miserable. Oh, yeah. You see what I'm saying. Speaker 2: Yeah, when you see a child that's spoiled, they're not happy, right, they're miserable. They've gotten everything they've ever wanted and they can't be satisfied. Without satisfaction, there's no peace. You can't be happy. I think it is the selfishness that drives sin of any kind. When a man gives in to the temptation to use pornography. Sin of any kind when a man gives in to the temptation to use pornography. It's 100% selfish. I deal with a lot of people with this issue, not to say that I didn't have my own issue with it years ago, but the thought process and something always gets said. I wasn't trying to hurt anybody , nobody was supposed to get hurt, but someone always gets hurt, whether it's your spouse that gets hurt, the betrayal that it creates, yeah. It's spiritual suicide. You're sticking a shotgun to your chest with giving into the temptation to view pornography. What about the people in the video? Yeah. You're contributing to the death of those people. You didn't think you were going to hurt anybody and look at this trail of destruction you leave behind you Again. That's why sin is a big deal. You don't think it hurts anybody, but it hurts everybody. Speaker 1: I agree with that. It probably hurts you the most though. Oh yeah, body, but it hurts everybody. I agree with that. It probably hurts you the most, though. The thing about sin is we get. I'm somebody who is a low carber and I have been for years . One of the things that I think is an absolute evil is sugar. I think it tastes great, but I don't think there's any benefit to eating sugar, and to me that's a really great way to think about sin, and I realize I wasn't anticipating I would be talking about sugar and sin. But they're empty calories. They don't treat any part of your body well. They don't help you at any stage. They just taste good. Sugar just tastes good, and it makes things palatable, but it doesn't make things beneficial. Speaker 2: You know the funny thing too I'm a low-carber myself, and a lifelong yo-yo dieter right, the days of my youth whenever I was just shredded body and I could eat whatever I wanted to and nothing affected me. You know those days are long gone. I, you know you hit 25, 26 and you, you start seeing those things in the review more and more. Yeah. Here's the thing. So I I'll, I'll go a stretch without having sugar of any kind , sometimes three months. I'm in the midst of one right now. You know, I'm down a few pounds and I feel really good about myself, you know, and you want to maintain that, you want to hold that. So Friday night we got together with some friends and watched a movie and they did a candy salad. That's kind of the popular thing to do right now is everybody brings a different kind of candy and everybody puts it in the bowl. And you know, and I had my sugar-free stuff ready to eat, but man, that bowl was so tempting and so I did. Speaker 1: I reached in there and I got a handful that's all. Speaker 2: It was just a handful it wasn't like I. I made myself a bowl, I I just got some, a few. It made me so sick. It made me so sick and so you realize what it does to your body when your body hadn't had it in a while. It makes you sick. It's bad for you even a little bit. That's a great analogy. Sin is sugar 100%. There's no nutritional benefit, and when you go long enough without it, you realize how bad it is for you. Speaker 1: Well, I wasn't anticipating this becoming a low-carb podcast, but I think one of the things that I do recognize is that some of the parallels include we celebrate with sugar while we celebrate with sin. I mean it's. I mean vegas has made a reputation off being a place that is called sin city, and for good reason, I mean. It basically caters to all the vices that anybody has an interest in, and so I I think, I think one of the things that that that we recognize is that we have often seen sin as something that is rewarding, but I don't think any of us would call that reward a virtue. Yeah, we know that in the end it's bad, we know that in the end it's not good for us, and yet it's all tempting to us. If it wasn't tempting, nobody would do it. Tempting to us. If it wasn't tempting, nobody would do it. So I mean again, I guess it comes back to that idea of sin management that I don't want to eradicate it because there's too many fun parts about it, and so I'm just not going to have that much of it. I'm just going to do a little bit of just on my birthday, just you know, and and just on a special occasion I'm going to, I want to take part in, in this because, hey, I, I deserve this I've been really good. Speaker 2: Say that again. I deserve this. Yeah, think about that for a second. That's right. Oh man, I deserve this, and what we actually deserve is death. Speaker 1: And we don't think of it that way. Speaker 2: We think of us deserving the pleasure that the sin brings, whatever it is, whether it's food or whatever. And yet it's the death, it's the consequence that we deserve. Man, that's heavy, kenny, that's heavy. Speaker 1: Man, that's heavy, kenny, that's heavy no-transcript, and so we treat that one with a lot of reverence because we can't get around it. It's the moral laws that we feel like. You know, those are the ones that we probably have some flexibility with. Being good doesn't mean we always have to be good. As a matter of fact, there are some times when we probably ought to be bad. Speaker 2: I think we use a faulty gauge. Well, I'm not doing those things, I'm not as bad as that guy. I didn't kill anybody, right, I didn't kill anybody when I did that. Nobody got hurt when I did that of got hurt when I did that. And we have this faulty gauge system where we think well, it's not as bad as others, because murder is not the same thing as a white lie, but it is. It's not inconsequential and I think we have that faulty gauge in our mind where we do Just like you said we justify. Speaker 1: And we're awfully comfortable with the justifications. Again, every time we've sinned, we can start off with I know it's wrong, but and it's that phrase that comes after the but that we've all filled in before. I mean, all of us have come up with a justification before we know why doing the wrong thing is the right thing to do. Again, not really the right thing, just the thing that we've chosen. You're going to say something. Speaker 2: Well, I keep thinking about the example where Jesus is talking about the self-righteous man that is judging the unrighteous man. The unrighteous man says be merciful to me, a sinner, Right? I think sometimes, far too often, we are the other guy. We're not as bad as them, so our sin isn't as bad. We're not doing what they're doing. You see this a lot in the political realm this time of year. We are in the midst of it, where you've got finger pointing from other side and listen. It's really easy to get caught up in that, especially whenever you see people, maybe from the opposing party, saying they're coming from a place of morality we're voting this way because of morality and you look at the things that they support, you're like, well, none of that's moral. And so what happens is is you demonize them because their idea of morality is different than yours. But even your idea of morality is skewed because you're not putting yourself in the same category. Yeah, I don't support abortion, but because I don't recognize my own flaws, I just see theirs, and so I think well, yeah, you support abortion. So what? That is just as sinful as the things that I do and justify it's a faulty gauge system I think Paul talks about on 2 Corinthians when he talks about you know, you judge yourselves by yourselves and in doing so you err. Speaker 1: And in doing so, you err. That's right. We don't like comparing ourselves to Jesus very much because we always fare poorly in the comparison, and that's really the only standard that makes really any sense. We have gotten so good at the sin game. Speaker 2: Is it possible for us to live sinlessly? I wish this was a one word answer, but it's not. It can be done, right. Yeah. I often hear things like oh well , I sin every day, but you don't have to. It's not like there aren't other options. You can go through the whole day and not sin. You can go all week and not sin . You could go all month and not sin. It's not impossible, it's hard. And so, because it's hard and because I think human beings have a weaker disposition in regards to the flesh, have a weaker disposition in regards to the flesh. Paul in Romans, chapter seven, when he's going through the. You know the, the things I don't want to do is what I keep on doing, you know, and the evil that I don't want to do you know, I do it, you know. And he goes this whole presentation of his failure as a , as a man, because he says you know, wretched man, that I am not wretched man, that I used to be not wretched man, that I once was wretched man, that I am this morning. Who will save me, who will deliver me from this body of death? And so you go through this whole thing where even the Apostle Paul fell prey to sin. Because the reason that example in Romans, chapter 7, is so powerful is because it's in the first person. Paul is saying this is my struggle, the things that I don't want to do is what I do. And he talks about this wrestling and warring. He says in my mind, I delight in the law of God, but in my body I wage war against the members of my body. Now you can fill in the blank with whatever you think that is. He's at war within himself. The mind and the heart and the body are not in sync. And so Paul's at war with sin. He knows in his mind I delight in the law of God. In my mind, he says with sin. He knows in his mind I delight in the law of God. In my mind he says, but in my body I wage war against myself essentially. And so I think sometimes we look at when Peter repeats from Exodus, 19, 20, 21 in his letter . Whatever he repeats from that letter, saying be holy as I am holy. Talking about when Moses was given the law of the people, god expected his people to be holy. It's not a part where we think, well, man, that's impossible. Even Paul wasn't holy. And again this goes back to sanctification and grace and forgiveness and the things that were supposed to be off limits for this podcast grace and forgiveness and the things that were supposed to be off limits for this podcast. But the truth is, I think, in our mind, because we recognize that even the Apostle Paul, the guy that wrote half the New Testament, wrestled with sin, and the whole crux of that passage in Romans, chapter 7, is that I fight and sometimes I win and sometimes I don't. Yeah. And it's more often that I don't . I think we see that and we go okay, well, it's okay if I don't . You know, and and again, paradoxical uh statement here uh , if you're in a relationship with God, you do have the avenue of repentance and grace is there and forgiveness is present . But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think that's where we get stuck. We look and see well, paul wasn't holy. Right. But it doesn't mean he didn't try. The fact that he talks about a war being waged between his body and mind tells us that he was trying, he was fighting. He just doesn't always win. And I think we take a statement that says, well, could I be sinless? And we go oh no, we can't. But I think the truth is we could, Maybe not forever, but I mean you can get really good at anything you try to do. I just don't know if we have the conditioning to do so in this day and age. Not that we have it any worse than any other day and age, right. But I do think that because we've desensitized ourselves to it, we've justified so much of it, we just don't have the fortitude. It's possible, but I don't think it's probable. Speaker 1: Is it possible to be faithful to your wife? Absolutely, I think it's probable. Is it possible to be faithful to your wife? Absolutely, I think so too. Does that mean that people don't stray? Speaker 2: Absolutely not. They stray all the time yeah. Speaker 1: I think one of the things that happens to us is we think we are victims to our circumstances. But if you marry the right woman, she might be very forgiving, but that doesn't mean you get to just do whatever you want to in your relationship. And I think that the most important thing you brought up there was the relationship that we have with God. Will God forgive us as many times as we ask to be forgiven? Yes, he will, but what does the relationship with God look like and how strong is that relationship? And that relationship only gets better when you take it seriously. Speaker 2: Here's the thing, using your example People are unfaithful in marriages. It happens all the time, but it's not going to happen too much in the same marriage. You might get away with it one time, like you may be, you may repent and reconciled and your spouse takes you back. Right, you know, but that's that's it. Not very many more would put up with a second offense Right, that's right. Let alone a third, right, it's like you kind of get one shot at that and it's always there. The reality of that infraction is always there, because you've taken this vessel and you've shattered it, and, yeah, you can put it all back together, but it's still cracked. The scar will always remain. Can you get past it? Sure, could it make you even stronger? Possibly, will she put up with it a second time? Or will he put up with a second time? Not likely With God, who, I think, understands the principle of adultery better than anybody . Because isn't that what sin is? It is we choose some other God over Him, whether it's myself, my sin, whatever, you can fill in your blank with your idol, but when I choose anything over Him, it's sin. And so God understands adultery better than anybody. With him it's different. Maybe we're too comfortable with that. Yeah. Again, because the consequences aren't immediate. You know, if a man or a woman is unfaithful to their spouse one time, they may get over it. The second time there's going to be an immediate consequence Get out, move out, go. There's an immediate consequence to it and with God it's all delayed. And I think, because it's out of sight, it's out of mind. Yeah. Speaker 1: One of the saddest stories I can think of in the Old Testament is Hosea. He marries a woman that God tells him to marry, who's a prostitute. Yeah. And he has three children. Horrible names. Yeah, the last one is named Loami and basically it means this is not my child, Not my kid . Yeah, well, I think. Literally means not my people. Speaker 2: And that was probably the truth. Speaker 1: Probably the truth for all of them, I mean. The fact is that he married somebody. The heartbreak of that story is it's somebody that Hosea wanted to be faithful and kept on bringing back and kept on forgiving and kept on him being faithful and being married to somebody who would not be faithful. Speaker 2: And think about again . This is me coming back to the cost. Yeah, in that famous chapter where God says, go get her. Yeah, I mean that's God telling him to go If you've read anything about prostitution in that day and age and the people that Gomer, that she would have come from, she was from a different people and their particular people were known for prostitution. They were known for that Um and um and so this was, this was second nature to her and Hosea had pulled Gomer out of that, probably the first time she had ever felt real love. Probably the first time she'd been treated. Maybe Uh well, who knows? But because it's what she knows she'd been treated. Maybe Well, who knows? But because it's what she knows , she goes back to it and that's kind of like us with sin right, we come into the relationship with Christ, we feel real love for the first time. We're treated better. We still go back to what we're used to, right? So Hosea obeys God and he goes. And when you think about where he has to go, prostitutes weren't on your main street village, they were in back alleys, they were in slums, they were in the parts of town that righteous men don't go to. Men of God don't go to these parts of town and that's where he has to go to get her. And another thing that I've read about and now this could be supposition, so take this for what it's worth, but from what I understand, in that day and age she would be there with her handler. I understand in that day and age she would be there with her handler and he would have literally have a chain attached to her Right and when the exchange is made he hands you the chain and he takes the payment while you go and fulfill the contract, and then you bring her back and you hand him back the chain and the transaction's over, and more often than not they were completely nude standing there. So now put yourself in Hosea's shoes. You're a godly man who has a go where godly men don't go, and you see your wife undressed. Yeah. In public, in chains, and you have to walk up to this man and say excuse me, sir, that's my wife. And the man says I don't care, this is how much she cost. And so you have to pay for what you already own. That's your wife and you pay it . You pay it. You say how much? How much does it cost? And you pay it. The world belongs to God and all they're in we're already His , and he has to buy us back. And you think about the cost associated with that. You think about the cost, like Hosea having to buy back his own wife in these horrible places where godly men don't go, he goes and he pays for what's already his. And that's what happens every time we sin. Every time we sin, jesus has to come to where he shouldn't be and buy us back. Man, if that doesn't at least motivate you to try, I don't know what will. Right, can you imagine the exchange when Gomer sees her husband? He sees her, and there's this moment of eyes locking. I can't, man. I can't it. I cry, I can't, it's too much. Yeah. Speaker 1: Santa is ugly and it does some really terrible things to all of us. We just don't recognize it as terrible because it's so common, and that's that's a. Literally, that's a shame to us . It is, and when you think what a sin-free existence would look like, I mean, basically, god is giving us the ability to escape the consequences of sin Not all, I'm not talking about physical consequences to escape the consequences of sin, Uh, not all . I'm not talking about physical consequences, but I am talking about the eternal consequences of sin, and that that's that's a . That's a really cool thing. But don't lose for a moment that when you send, you are separating yourself by choice, that you are doing much less than you can and you are making something worse that doesn't have to be bad at all. Yeah, you're taking something that could be good and you're introducing something bad, something evil. Yeah, does that make sense, total sense. Yeah, does that make sense, total sense. Yeah, it doesn't take much poison to make something deadly. Speaker 2: That's right it just takes a little so anyway, that's the old adage, right? How much poison do you have to drink before you don't want to drink any? Speaker 1: Well, the answer is none. Speaker 2: I don't want to drink any of it, right, but we do. Speaker 1: Yeah, we drink the poison, that's right, okay, what have we missed about sin? Speaker 2: Well, we've talked about, I think, its origin. You know, with deception and selfishness. I think we've talked about the cost. If there's any light to be had in this, it is the fact that we don't have to be lost. That's another paradox in and of itself. The worst thing that ever happened was the murder of God's Son. The best thing that's ever happened is the death of God's Son. That sin was carried out by the hands of His creation, but it was the will of the Creator that we could be saved, right. I think about Joel 2, when Peter quotes from that on Pentecost. But he says Yet, even now, return to me with all your heart , with fasting, weeping and wailing. But he says even now. And so if you just take that verse by itself, even now, in the mess you're in, god can take the worst and make the best. Return to me, weeping and wailing, repenting. And I love verse 13 because it says Rend your heart, not your garments. Tear your heart, I don't care about your mask. God didn't come and die for our mask. He came and died for us, and who we are is in the heart. He says don't tear your clothes , I don't care about that. Give me your heart Right and return to me because I'm compassionate and I'm gracious, and I think that when we realize the egregiousness of sin, because of its cost, because of what it does in our separation from God, the fact that this is even on the table, the fact that this is even on the table, allah tells something about it that obviously, sin is not too powerful for God to save us from , but it is powerful enough to separate us eternally if we don't repent Right, which all points back to Jesus, obviously, because without Jesus, repentance is even an option. And so if there's anything that we haven't covered, it's just that Nothing is insurmountable in regards to our sin. Speaker 1: I've asked you to do the thankless here, keith, which is I'm asking a preacher to talk only about the bad side of something. Speaker 2: Well, but it needs to be talked about though. It does need to be talked about because of how serious it is. People need to know it's a big deal. I think sometimes we get all too caught up in making Christianity about us, and it's not Whether there's a heaven or not. God deserves worship, god deserves praise, he deserves my obedience, whether I get anything or not. And I think sometimes we get caught up in making it about us. And so, yeah, we do take the fluffy side of grace and the fluffy side of love and forgiveness and we make it all about us and we neglect completely the cost. We look at that and we go yeah, god's gracious and compassionate, at what cost? When we don't understand the value of what's been given, then it is about us. We become that spoiled child that we were talking about. That's never really happy. Speaker 1: The reason I want to have this conversation and really I don't want to talk about forgiveness it's because we have gotten me too I mean, I'm not saying anything that I haven't had the same problem with is I just don't have a very good idea what sin looks like, how bad sin is. Yes, Because it's so common to me and it's so common to all of us that we, since we don't think about it that way and since the preacher is so quick to talk about the solution, I don't really we don't really dwell on the problem very much, and I think it's important to think about what the problem is, because the problem is bigger than you are and you can't fix it. Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely yeah . It's hard to not want to go to redemption and all this, but the truth is I'm pretty sure that we're all familiar with that. I'm pretty sure we all know we can be saved, right? I think the trouble is is because we know that we don't really let it change us. We want to be free from the consequences of sin Right, but what about being free from sin? Right? That's a whole other conversation, because and I think that's what we're talking about I want to be free from sin , that's right. Yes, I want to be free from the consequences of my sin, like everybody else, but I would really like to be able to just let it all go, for as much work as I may put towards not sinning . When you find yourself there, there's the disappointment, there's the disgust with yourself, there's all these things that you go through, and I would love to be free from all that. I would love to never have to open that box again and unpack all that stuff, because it is exhausting. It'd be so much easier to just not sin. Speaker 1: It would be so much easier to be in a marriage that had no problems. Speaker 2: Oh man, my wife would say, yes. Well, you would too, to be in a marriage with me, without all the problems that I bring. Speaker 1: Again when you're able to take sin out of the equation, the sin is the problem . I mean again going back to God, our relationship with God. The problem between you and God is sin. That's the problem. What happens if you take sin away and then there are no more problems anymore? But, the more you keep on reintroducing Zen, the more problems you have. Speaker 2: And I wonder if maybe we changed the way we looked at it, that when Eve was tempted by Satan and she took the fruit, she declared war on God. She saw something that would kill her as good. You know, I think that's where people are. Speaker 1: That's the justification for it. We see something that will kill us as good. I think what she would say and I think we would. I've seen this in many places where we talk about we are emancipated, that we that we have basically freed ourselves from the, the bondage of somebody else or somebody else's expectations. And the fact is you yes, that that is exactly right. You wanted yeah, satan did lie, but he didn't lie about what that would. It gave them the knowledge of good and evil. They got exactly what they asked for, and the problem is they didn't understand the consequences of what they were asking for. Oh yeah, it's kind of like the children of Israel asking for a king and they got one, and they got exactly the problems that God said that they would have with a king. Speaker 2: Boy did they. Speaker 1: Yeah, they did so anyway. Well, keith, again, I'm sorry that this is a glum topic, but I think it's an important topic. Speaker 2: It's a necessary topic. I think it needs to be talked about and I hope that it gets some traction. I think that needs to be heard and obviously I don't have all the answers and I know you would say the same thing, but if we could get a conversation started about this and really kind of bring it to mind, it's easy to point out other people's sins while completely ignoring our own, yes, and so if we could start having a conversation about the egregiousness of my sin and I could invite you to hate my sin and you could invite me to hate yours, maybe we could be, at at some point, sinless yeah. Maybe, Maybe it's possible. Like I said, I would listen. The Bible class answer is yes, you can be sinless, right, but that only works in Bible class, because that's what the teacher wants to hear. Yeah, you and I both know we get home because that's what the teacher wants to hear. Yeah, you and I both know we get home and you look at the man in the mirror and there's probably something else there, and so we can start having a conversation about hating my own sin and inviting other people to hate my sin too, and just having that raw sort of honesty about it. Maybe we could do something. Speaker 1: I think we could, I think we've talked many times. Yeah, we've talked about vulnerability before and the importance of vulnerability, and I think that's exactly right. Satan likes things hidden, yeah , and when they're hidden in shame, then he gets exactly what he wants, because for some reason, now you feel like you were defined by that thing. Yeah. You're defined by the thing that makes you shameful, and that's just not a good place to be. All right, it's a depressing topic, but I always end my podcast with be good and do good . What's good about recognizing our own sin? Speaker 2: at the risk of sounding cliche in the realm of addiction, acknowledging you have a problem is the first step towards recovery. Yeah. It's become very popular to say well, I'm just a sinner, we discussed that, yeah, but it's one thing to acknowledge that in a way that gets you attention. Mm-hmm. Can you say that in a private room with no one around? Yeah. And mean it. Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. I think that's the benefit of knowing is that if I know, then I can do something, being able to share that with others after we've truly accepted our dilemma . Because here's the truth If I can't look at myself in the mirror and say, if I don't stop this, I'm going to hell no one wants to think they're going to hell, but it's a reality that many people will face, you know, and I think that the first step to not going there is admitting that I'm on the way there and I need to change directions. And so I think if there's any benefit to knowing, that's it. Yeah. I agree. Keith been too long, my friend. No doubt, dude, we really should do this more. I mean, I was glad that you and I got to sit face to face and do this back in January. I'm glad to see you, my friend. I'm glad you're doing well. Speaker 1: Same here. I think we'll probably talk sooner than later. Speaker 2: Awesome, can't wait. Speaker 1: I knew Keith wouldn't be able to talk just about the problem of sin without introducing us to its hopeful solution. As I said, this is an episode that is one-sided, but intentionally. I think this shows us how sin is selfish, how it separates us from everything that's truly worthwhile, and how its cost is both ridiculous and necessary. When we study sin more, it makes our participation in it both short-sighted and stupid. I hope that helps. The balancing of the Christian Life Conference had to be delayed because of Hurricane Milton. We're going to be doing it November 7th through 9th. Now, if you were affected by that or Hurricane Helene, I'm praying for you. If there's something I can do, please reach out. God is with those who are devastated and those spared. He loves us all and that's important to remember. Next time I hope to talk with my good friend, andrew Roberts about a topic that we don't think about very often. I'm just going to leave it there, so until next time, let's be good and do good.